Featured Saudi Arabia Sends Blue Ammonia to Japan in World-First Shipment

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Salamander_King, Sep 28, 2020.

  1. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Sounds like anhydrous ammonia, NH{3}, a rather excellent hydrogen carrier that I've advocated for a fuel-cell source:
    • Nitrogen - 14 atomic weight
    • Hydrogen - 1 atomic weight
    • 3 / 14 = 21.4% hydrogen
    So the 40 tons carries 8.56 tons of hydrogen. The rest is nitrogen that is safe to release.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #2 bwilson4web, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I gathered from the article, that this blue ammonia is produced from fossil fuel with a process that captures and stores CO2 and used to produce hydrogen which is used as fuel in power plants in Japan. Two question I have are:
    1. How do they make this Blue Ammonia (vs. Green Ammonia) from fossil fuel without releasing CO2? If CO2 is just being stored, wouldn't it eventually has to be released at some point when it gets full?
    2. Can regular power plant just burn ammonia to produce electricity? Or does this require special type of power plant?
     
    #3 Salamander_King, Sep 28, 2020
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  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Wiki can answer the first question. As for burning ammonia, that would be one of the least effective ways of getting the hydrogen energy. Better to reformulate it into hydrogen and feed it to banks of fuel cells.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  5. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    Thanks for the explanation Bob!

    Cool, absolutely 0 C in NH3...

    moto g(7) power ?
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The term blue is used elsewhere for the same reasons green is used in the US. It's why Toyota emblems for hybrids have the blue accent.
    "Generation 1 is based on an expansion of current-day Haber-Bosch ammonia production using CO2 sequestration or offsets. Generation 2 moves the Haber-Bosch process to renewable sources of hydrogen, while generation 3 avoids the need for the Haber-Bosch process entirely by direct electrochemical conversion of N2 to NH3."- https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(20)30173-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS2542435120301732%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
    (Gen1 = blue, Gen2 = green)

    The Haber-Bosch process combines nitrogen from the air with hydrogen under extremely high pressures and moderately high temperatures. The hydrogen comes from fossil fuels currently. The CO2 is being made at a refinery or steam reformation plant, and capturing it isn't that hard to do. For sequestering, it is mostly pumped deep underground. The US is one of the largest sequesterers of CO2, but we pump it into oil wells to get more oil out, so I'm not sure how much that actually helps with CO2 emissions.

    It is possible to sequester CO2 chemically; bind the carbon with something else. It's how the oceans made all that limestone. At work, we were bubbling CO2 from fermentation through sodium hydroxide to make sodium carbonate.

    Ammonia is flammable. The actual gas that is. Ammonia in water solutions is actually ammonium hydroxide, and the rate of it coming off as gas isn't a flammability concern. I saw reports of ammonia engines years ago, and since it doesn't have a C, you don't get Co and CO2 as byproducts when burning it.

    Some materials may have to change, mostly among seals and gaskets, for long service life, but turbines aren't picky about fuels used, specially if you are mixing the ammonia in with whatever fuel the designer intended. Piston engines are trickier, but there is likely groups working on one that uses 100% ammonia. In the meantime, it appears current gasoline cars can use up to 10% without modification. Combating climate change with ammonia-fueled vehicles - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

    The anhydrous gas is stored as a liquid under low pressures(200somehting psi). So far less hassles than dealing with hydrogen, or even natural gas/methane. A major safety 'hassle' with it is that it does quickly form a strong base when mixed with water, like say in your eyes, mucus membranes, and lungs. The is also the concern of it being used to make illegal drugs.

    Haven't confirmed, but ammonia should be a small enough molecule to allow a solid oxide fuel cell to directly reform. NOx might be a by-product though.

    Ammonia and methanol are leading contenders for carbon neutral maritime fuels. DNV GL: Ammonia and Methanol are the Likeliest Future Fuels
     
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  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    what seems surprising is how Japan was previously having their hydrogen come in refrigerated/liquid form, ah la Australian Brown coal. Did the bad PR shut brown coal reformation down? Or is this just in addition to coal, kind of like California insisting part of its hydrogen coming from renewables, as opposed to just CO2 releasing fossil fuels.
    .
     
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Costs and needs. Anhydrous ammonia is already shipped all over the place, so there is already a fleet of ships for that purpose. How many hydrogen haulers have been made since the Australian deal was made?

    Then Japan isn't going to reduce their carbon foot print with coal turned hydrogen alone, and that was for FCEV vehicles. This will be burned in natural gas power plants.
     
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    There are fundamental chemistry, physics, and thermal dynamic issues associated with a hydrogen-based economy. Let the 'true believers' run the experiment. After all, it is their gold and time. Meanwhile the BEV crowd need not waste any time. The hydrogen fuel cell advocates are paying the price for their 'choice.'

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    But they aren't spending their gold for the refueling stations and infrastructure. They are taking from the community chest

    I'm not against government helping out in getting new technologies going, but hydrogen cars have been getting more than plug ins with less to show for it.
     
  11. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    You all know with the expansion of Hydrogen vehicles and the expansion of fueling stations the cost of hydrogen will drop and this is predicted within 10 years. All new technology starts high and comes down in cost. Look Tesla is talking about a sub $25k vehicle. Who would of thought that. Not sure why the objection of tax dollars paying for hydrogen infrastructure? Our taxes pay for many other things which could be considered wasteful and worthless.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That was also predicted ten years ago.

    Hydrogen use for cars is still in the research stage. The Mirai can be filled over 12k in Japan. it will cost millions to upgrade stations made for 10k psi, just like it it cost millions to upgrade the old 7k psi stations. then there are other filling techniques and storage systems being researched that could make those obsolete.

    Hydrogen may not even end up as the fuel for FCEVs. Nissan's uses ethanol. Volvo has one sized for truck and boat generators that runs on diesel. Bloom boxes use natural gas. We could use ammonia. All those example would be much cheaper to build infrastructure for, if it doesn't already exist.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    By all means, let the hydrogen experiment continue in California. Eventually someone will notice how much is being spent for so few. Does @orenji have:
    • How many hydrogen fuel cell cars are registered in California?
    • How much is spent each year on hydrogen stations?
    Bob Wilson
     
  14. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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  15. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    There is a beginning for everything. Mirai being the first publicly sold hydrogen vehicle has sold as of December 2019 10,000 plus vehicles. Hydrogen stations infrastructure is growing just as charging stations are. Today, 152,995 gas stations dot the landscape, including 123,289 convenience stores. On average, each location sells about 4,000 gallons of fuel per day, back in 1913 a gas station would sell 30 gals a day. Big jump from the 30 gallons sold at the Gulf station in Pittsburgh on December 1, 1913
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That 10,000 is globally over 5 years. The Model S sold over 16,000 in the US during the year the Mirai went on sale, and Tesla didn't have a series of BEV models for testing and improvements preceding the Model S's release.

    The largest capacity, public hydrogen station in California can't match what gas stations and dispense on average. The hydrogen car industry doesn't have over a hundred years to establish itself has a viable alternative. If we could literally start the entire personal car thing over from scratch, let's use hydrogen. But we can't.

    In order to have a meaningful impact in reducing emissions, alternatives for cars need to be able to make use of existing infrastructure, or be cheap enough to allow rapid roll out. Hydrogen has neither of those things going for it. Perhaps, one day, the fuel cell will replace the ICE, but it likely will have something else fueling it than hydrogen.
     
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  17. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    I disagree. Most Americans have no idea what a Fuel Cell is. It will take education and time for Fuel Cells to be adopted within the USA. It also does not help the cause when Tesla fans continue to snob their nose at the idea of Hydrogen, just to be on team Tesla. Tesla has done well but I think coming next year the competition will be taking a big bite out of Tesla sales. Tesla has been the only true EV available and owners were willing to look the other way on its faults, which are many. But with other vehicles coming to market from legacy manufacturers, who will be providing better build quality, the tide will turn. Toyota hybrids this year has taken a big chuck of sales away from Tesla. Americans work hard for their money and will be more likely to buy from manufacturers with long standing quality history. As to hydrogen, the redesigned 2021 Mirai has good looks. With good marketing, I predict an increase in sales for this redesigned vehicle, which will attract Lexus customers who want the latest tech in a package that also is good for the environment.
     
    #17 orenji, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Actually we're a Tesla owners and drivers. Since March 26, 2019, I've put 29,000 miles on our Std Rng Plus Model 3 going from Huntsville AL as far as Nashville TN, Chattanooga TN, Atlanta GA, Birmingham, AL, Dallas TX, and Coffeyville KS.
    Source: Alternative Fuels Data Center: Hydrogen Fueling Station Locations
    H2_map_010.jpg

    My Std Rng Plus Model 3 costs:
    • $0.00/100 miles - when using free L2 chargers at Whole Foods shopping center, Propst shopping center, Bridge Street shopping center, and Airport Road and Parkway shops. I've also used free L2 chargers at some car dealers. Roughly 25% of the EV miles.
    • $2.70/100 miles - when using home electricity. Roughly 65% of the EV miles. The remaining 10% are covered by the following groups.
    • $3.00/100 miles - when traveling with an overnight stay at motels with free breakfasts and charging.
    • $3.50/100 miles - when driving straight through, typically 700-750 miles.
    • $10.80/100 miles - when the grid fails and our natural gas, emergency generator runs. This is less than 0.01% of our EV miles but is reassuring.
    Source_2: Cost to refill | California Fuel Cell Partnership

    Short Answer:
    Automakers include three years of hydrogen fuel with the sale or lease of a vehicle

    Long Answer:
    The average price of hydrogen for a light-duty fuel cell electric vehicle (passenger car) in California is $16.51 per kilogram, according to the 2019 Joint Agency Report (p17). As more retail stations open and have higher utilization, the price per kilogram of hydrogen is projected to drop to ranges more competitive with the prices of gasoline. For example, in late 2019, the True Zero Oakland hydrogen station opened with three times the capacity of previous stations. It offers hydrogen at $13.11 per kilogram (tax included) due, in part, to the larger volume and other factors.

    Source_3: Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point
    Cost per 100 miles:
    • $0.00/100 miles - for first three years.
    • $21.01/100 miles = $65.55 / 312 mi = (5 kG * $13.11) / 312 mi, after 3 years.
    What surprised me is my most expensive charge rate, $10.80/100 miles, when our emergency generator is running, is still half the price of the cost of a Miri after three years, $21.01/100 miles. This month the Ozark AR truck stop added a Tesla Supercharger so I won't need to use the NEMA 14-50 adapter except for remote locations.

    I former Prius Prime owner, Tesla Autopilot and Full Self Driving are awesome. They handle 95% of all steering, speed down to below 10 mph, and lane changes. So I just look at the big picture knowing the car handles the details. In contrast, the Toyota Safety Sense handled speed changes above 28 mph; alerted on leaving a lane, and did not handle lane changes. The Tesla also has a 'summon' feature that is a hoot when the dogs are in the car.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #18 bwilson4web, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Honda FCX Clarity was available for lease in 2008. Arnold was promoting the hydrogen highway as California's governor around that time. If Americans don't know what a fuel cell is, it is because they don't need to know as the cars aren't available where they are. They aren't available because the hydrogen infrastructure is really expensive.

    The Supercharger network started in 2012. So the hydrogen network had a bit of a lead. Today, Superchargers cover most of the US, while there are hydrogen stations in Southern California and one in Connecticut. Tesla knew they needed a fast charge network in order to sell cars, and made the investment. The car companies promoting hydrogen wanted someone else to pay for the infrastructure, and only put money in when forced to.

    Hydrogen ICE cars are treated like PHEVs in the ZEV program, but none were made available in California. They would have been a lot cheaper than a FCEV, with much of the emission advantages. They likely would have also shown the shortcomings of hydrogen sooner.

    The new Mirai can be great, with lower price, and it would still just sell a few thousand with the current and future hydrogen infrastructure in the US.

    I'm not against FCEVs, but against hydrogen. We can make FCEVs that use other fuels, and most of those other fuels already have an national infrastructure to some degree.

    Got a source for that. Everybody's sales are down this year.

    And Tesla will finally be getting some real competition, but not in the US. The Supercharger network is a big advantage here. Then the others are going to focus on China and Europe in the next couple of years.
     
  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    & .... to amplify the issue of being forced to pay ... during Schwarzenegger's build a hydrogen highway era - the hydrogen lobby attempted to force legislators into making the fossil fuel industry pay for part of the hydrogen refueling infrastructure. Wouldn't that make sense? After all, reformation is cheapest by using their product (although not green) and it would guarantee they get to reduce their supplies of their product - which wood have the effect of raising the product cost to the public & bring greater profit for the oil industry. It didn't take long for the oil industry to crunch the numbers & discover what a financial loser that would be for them to build & maintain ..... though they would get to sell a lot of their product! So - the oil industry threatened protracted litigation if forced to enter a refueling station Market.
    In short order, California caved on their proposal. Obviously the optics would look horrible - the fuel cell industry didn't want their downside facts made known ..... which the oil industry could easily do with their massive advertising budget. Follow the money
    .
     
    #20 hill, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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