Saw Fahrenheit 9/11 Today

Thanks whatshisname, I agree completely.

I suppose I should clarify my position a little ; I'm actually quite liberal. I don't much care for Bush or his policies, but I've learned that I have to respect him as president (or I'll get my nice person tossed in jail for treason). I won't be crying any if he isn't re-elected; but if he is, I'm not going to go running.

I've always been a big fan of MM's work. I find it entertaining and occasionally eye-opening and informative; but I take it with a grain of salt. The problem with Moore is that whenever he omits something for shock value and the truth is uncovered, it just makes him look like a big fat idiot. Take BFC for example, again. The opening scenes where Moore is opening a CD account for the free gun? He didn't open the account that day. He had opened it months ago and passed his background check prior to filming. Therefore the line "Don't you think it's a little dangerous to be handing out guns at a bank?" is practically worthless; it really makes you question his credibility.

I am hoping that all of us here are intelligent enough to have not been force-fed Moore's views. I would seriously hope that everyone is not only capable of forming their own opinions, but they look at everything from more than one point of view. Moore's is a good place to start, but it shouldn't be where it ends. Now if you 'll excuse me, I have to go feed my pet rock.

 

Sorry, but I cannot respect a person who has no respect for humankind. Jail or not.

I'm definitely intelligent enough to read multiple accounts, listen to multiple accounts and take into account as much as possible before attempting to 'see' the truth. I do not trust CNN any more than I trust Fox News, they might as well be run by the same company since it's all owned by Turner or Gates or Murdoch anyways.

The beginning of the war, I tuned in to BBC because America was all about 'supporting the troops', and that's crazy - I want to hear how things really are, not "wow, I LOVE AMERICA!"

The Iraqi war has done nothing to make us safer - it has only made things a thousand times worse. If you can think what we've done there will 'come to pass' just like pet rocks, you've got another thing coming. Remember what happened in Spain this year before the elections?

We are fighting a war whether we like it or not. Granted, this war was started long before Bush was President - more around the time he was sniffing coke and being a free-spirited war dodging drunk. But regardless, by attacking Iraq we have successfully shown the radical extremists in the Muslim religion that they were indeed, right - we are only looking for our own interests, we are forcing ourselves upon their lands, and they will strike back.

This President has done a great job of making terrorism our largest, most dangerous enemy we've ever faced - and that's not Moore's opinion, or Franken's opinion, but my own. And just like the founders of our country left to avoid religious persecution from England, I too will do the same - especially when there's 'threat' to place a law that will limit my rights explicitly in the US Constitution.

-m.

 

*Sigh* If only it were so simple.

Unfortunately the it's hard to just "get over" a record deficit, or weakened environmental protections, or discriminatory constitutional amendments, or the erosion of our civil liberties, or the mistrust and anger that our recent actions have generated across the globe.

These things tend to have lasting effects.

 

I take comfort in the fact that Bush will, at worse, only be in office another 4.5 years. But then again, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he tried to declare himself dictator for life so that he could "catch the evildoers."

Actually, from what I understand, that scene unfolded exactly as it was shown in the movies. All he did was call ahead to get permission to film the whole thing. The reason it was editted together (you can kinda tell some significant time passed between shots) was that they were sitting around, waiting for the background check to go through.

I'd like to know exactly where it is you read about this allegation that it was all staged, or whatever.

 

eg, it sounds like you're repeating some hearsay with regards to the bank/gun scene in "Bowling". He lays out a pretty precise sequence of events here: [web:9ea2633e05]http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/[/web:9ea2633e05], about halfway down the page.

I certainly don't think MM walks on water, but if you have some evidence to back up your assertion, I think you should present it. Isn't that part of Journalism?

 

Has anyone said the country's rotten? The administration's rotten.

That suggests the kind of knee-jerk reaction against liberals so often heard: They hate America. Look at the name of the anti-Moore book being written right now: Michael Moore Hates America.

No political orientation owns patriotism.

 

I wanted to go see the movie over the opening weekend, but since I'm on vacation, I didn't really want to see something that would make me angry and upset. I'll wait until I get home to see it

But a few thoughts:

-The Bush camp has done everything they could to stop this movie being screened. Whatever happened to free speech and being accountable for your actions - if Moore fabricates facts, he'll be sued. If he's not sued, there's nothing that they can contest in the movie (does anyone really think that in litigation-happy America, that lawyers wouldn't jump all over the chance to crucify Moore if they had the opportunity?). Of course, I'm sure Moore would have the cameras rolling during the "trial" for his next movie!

-Moore has made no excuses for this movie - it's very one-sided, and is purposefully so to counter the right-wing propaganda. At least he's honest about what he's trying to do - get Bush (and hopefully some of his administration) out of office.

-Regardless of what people think about the movie, hopefully more people will get out and vote. The whole problem with the last election was voter apathy. Hopefully people consider that many millions of people have fought and died to support democracy, and not voting is an insult to their memories.

Dave

 

[Broken External Image]:http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/images/ad_bankgun.jpg

That's it! He is a moron! An investor with any sense would have taken the Callaways.

 

Watching a newscast tonight I saw an item about Moore while he was in Europe. He said Americans are stupid. That's right. The word was stupid, not mistaken or confused or misinformed; it was STUPID. I agree. We're stupid because many of us are swallowing his tripe.

 

Most Americans are ignorant and are happy that way. The education level of the US is falling at a sad rate. Most Americans, I'm afraid, ARE stupid. Or at least ignorant, which is not too far away.

 

I'm a mid-road Republican who will, for the first time since before 1960, vote the Democratic ticket.

I believe in capitalism; but I believe that it must be tempered by controls in order to protect against its tendency, in its raw state, to do the following:

. Create extremes in distribution of wealth,
. Compromise the freedoms of the typical citizen
. Take a huge toll on the environment
. Cause unnecessary wars to be fought

This Bush administration, although having campaigned for office as middle-road politicians, has turned out to be purveyors of the far right , of capitalism in its rawest state, and ‘damn the controls’.

A political swing to either extreme is dangerous and has to be brought into check before too much damage can be done. Any constitutionally viable method for doing this is not only fair and proper, it's necessary. This is where Michael Moore comes in. He may be a left wing zealot, but he's performing a service for us all by using his ability to communicate through film to meet that end. I say more power to him, even though, on seeing the film, I was a bit disappointed in his tendency to overly dramatize in order to make a point (hurts, to some degree, the credibility of what he’s trying to say).

I only hope that, come this next election, we'll all take a hard look at this current administration's swing to extreme and, through our vote, assure that we don't experience another four years of the abusing of our constitution and the undoing of our country's system of checks and balances.

 

That seems like a pretty typical right-wing response. djc and tag both posted the relevant evidence for Moore's argument (that the opening scene of BFC was, indeed, NOT staged). Both of them asked you, politely and reasonably, to furnish your own evidence to backup your assertions. We're not asking for DNA evidence or anything (heck, maybe that bank ad was Photoshopped together by the vast left-wing conspiracy ). Just give us a link to a newspaper article, conservative website, anything! Even if you just made it up yourself, at least show us your personal website or blog; put a little effort into your fabrications.

While that's left unanswered, I see you've already moved on to your next attack. Can't be bothered to backup your own statements?

Yes, Moore said that Americans are stupid. ... And? Is that the best you've got? I happen to agree with him. The fact that 60% of people eligible didn't vote in 2000 is pretty stupid. The fact that, of the 40% of the population projected to vote this November, half still support Bush is also pretty stupid (in my opinion). Consequently, I didn't vote in 2000 (and thus, I am also stupid), but you can be damn sure I'm never going to miss an election again, unless I'm dead or in a coma.


Has anyone else noticed that every article about this movie has the words "polemic" and "Bush-bashing" in it? Without fail. Its almost as if these outlets are just cribbing one another's work, or writing based on a list of talking points. Doesn't anyone use a thesaurus anymore?

I'll leave you with 2 quotes:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt

"Those who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom nor security."
-Ben Franklin

 

I thought it was me that had to prove that it was staged. Either way, here goes:

For more check out Bowling for Truth



I went to see F9/11 this afternoon and I was slightly disappointed. It lacked the sharp humor I had come to appreciate from Moore and felt like a stab at the Bush administration. I wrote down a few things that alarmed me and I plan on checking those statements as well before shooting off my mouth any further.

(I thought I might also add that, in the scene where Moore follows Peterson's mother to the White House, the 24-hour demonstrator speaks. I have met her on several occasions and I have never seen her that talkative, ever. Seemed a little fishy to me, but maybe she opens up when somoene puts a camera in her face?)

 

That was a pretty interesting site (Bowling for Truth). I've only looked at the page on the opening scene so far. Now I'm kinda curious as to whether the guns were kept on site or "at a vault 4 hours away." Moore has said that the bank keeps guns on site, in a vault, so they can be handed out the same day. Naturally, if its REALLY in a vault 4 hours away, I guess "on-site" and "in a vault" wouldn't technically be lying by Moore, but it would certainly be misleading. Quite frankly, I'm not inclined to believe either of these sides over the other right now.

As for the overall feel of the scene: I never thought that Moore was implying that a criminal could just walk in, buy a gun and rob the bank. I thought it was very clear that he was going to fill out that background check form, which the lady would then fax into the FBI (or ATF? or some such Federal agency). I thought the whole scene was one big "can you believe this???" kind of parody, like dentists handing out lollipops.

Just think about it: what's the ONE thing banks are afraid of? Ok, two things: guns and explosives. Of course no criminal is going to sit in the bank, fill out forms, deposit $1000, etc. etc. when he can go to Wal-Mart and get all Rambo-ed up for much cheaper and much less hastle. Still, you're not allowed to drive with an open container of alcohol (even if you're not drinking from it and aren't drunk), and airlines don't allow you to pack explosives in your suitcase, even if its not wired to a detonator and timer. Some things just don't mix, like banks and guns. THAT was the message I got from the opening scene.


As for the scene with Peterson's mother in front of the White House: I wonder how talkative someone can be, 24 hours a day? When you've seen her, are people stopping to read her posters and signs? Are there a lot of people around? Is she asleep? I think being a "crazy person" is pretty tiring. Having attended Cal for 4 years (UC Berkeley), I've seen more than my share of crazy people on and around campus. Most only "work" Sproul Plaza a couple days a week, for a couple hours a day. It looks like it takes a lot of energy to scream about something or other at the top of your lungs for X hours. If she's there for the long haul, I can't really blame her for being a bit laid back when it comes to not engaging every single person who walks in front of the White House in a given day.


How about this, I won't accept everything Moore says if you don't accept everything the radical right says. I'll start: there seems to be a lot of confusion about the "bin Laden" flight out of the US after 9/11. What Moore said, what Clarke said, what the Republicans said, etc. But I've read enough and heard enough that I think Moore might have misrepresented certain facts without lying outright. Ok, your turn : )

 

Interesting Point by Point discussion of some of the concerns with the movie.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/n...k/site/newsweek

The question seems to be, does Dowdification really count as 'lying'?

 

Agree with Evan, a well written article overall. What it demonstrates, though doesn't actually say it, is that in a number of places, Michael Moore is guilty of the same tactics that Rush Limbaugh uses; stringing together facts that have nothing to do with each other to create something wholely new and not truely supportable by the facts given. Neither Rush nor Michael should be taken at face value.

Having said that, as is obvious from my many previous posts, I still think Bush needs to finish this term without screwing up anything more than he already has and then leave.

 

Finally, some moderation amongst the FUD. Here's a great quote I found recently:

“In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be guarded by a bodyguard of lies.†– Winston Churchill 1940

It's like a big shell game...where's the truth?

 

Go See Spiderman Instead...

I grabbed this from the opinion page of a local paper.

 

My wife and I just saw the film, and I agree there is propaganda there, but the portrayal of Bush as a lying, incompetent SOB seems right on the mark. It is so wrong that our highest office holders are in the pockets of the Saudis, simply because of our dependence on foreign oil.

The billions we are spending in Iraq could much better been spent on developing the technologies to wean us from foreign oil. Why can't American car companies produce a safe, clean, fuel-efficient vehicle? Are they 'on the take' just like Bush? The whole system just seems so corrupt I don't know if it can be changed. The Democrats are either really ignoring a golden opprotunity or they are also in on the same scheme. I fear the latter. Where are the political ads asking "Where are the weapons of Mass Destruction?". Are they afraid to call a liar a liar for fear of themselves being exposed? It makes me sick to see where we have ended up with this adminsitration.

IMHO, the last 'moral' President we had was Jimmy Carter. He was ineffective as a politician mostly because of his moral sense. Bush definitely will rank up there with 'tricky Dick' Nixon when all is said and done.
Well, enough of my rant on this topic, but I had to vent. I now feel I must do something but don't know exactly what. If anyone out there feels as I do and has found a way to react, let me know. Right now, I just feel lost.