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Scary Situation Brewing in the Middle East...

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Mystery Squid, Jan 26, 2006.

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  1. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    Its war. That is what war is. It sounds as though it makes you very uncomfortable.
     
    #141 malorn, Jan 30, 2006
  2. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    War isn't the same as it was in the beginning of the 20th century...

    Part of the problem with your interpretation is that you think of "terror" as a singular entity... much the same way as an Axis nation was.

    But when we talk about a "war on terror" it transcends nation states... it's about ideology... so in order to truly wage a war on terror, you must fight the war in people's hearts and minds... which you continue to ignore!

    War is not just about fighting with guns and missles and bombs and tanks... epecially in the 21st century.
     
    #142 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  3. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

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    as much as there is a war on premature ejaculation
    it's just jingoism for the masses
     
    #143 maggieddd, Jan 30, 2006
  4. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    That's why I hated the whole nomenclature of "war on terror"... it puts more emphasis on military action than it does the other side of this struggle...

    HEARTS AND MINDS.

    Geez are you even listening to me?
     
    #144 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  5. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    Yes, but it's interesting how you choose to simply ignore that little part and simply presume it to be a total failure. At least, that's how you (likely intentionally) choose to project it.


    I've no idea.

    Where did I say that? :lol: OF COURSE we have a responsibility to assure minimum loss of human life. Are you even READING anything I post? Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, or are you just "skimming"?


    How the heck do you know what our hit rate is???? And it's NOT my theory, it's reality! Sure the U.S. is going to brag about getting someone "big", but I'm sure there are those they can't exactly go around parading they "got". Yeah, MY THEORY indeed... :rolleyes:

    See, THIS is what I have a problem with, you don't know the true "hit rate", you don't know precisely what the topography it, therefore you ASSUME/default to we're doing a shitty job...

    Just as a reminder, how many U.S. soldiers have been lost in this war so far in comparison to let's say Vietnam? No, the intention is not to marginalize any soldier but let's consider 50,000 over what, 7 years, opposed to just over 2,000 in 3?
     
    #145 Mystery Squid, Jan 30, 2006
  6. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    War is usually about ideaology. What was nazism? Were all of the citizens killed in bombings in germany members of the NAzi party? Of course not, the vast majority were just german citizens in the wrong place in history.
     
    #146 malorn, Jan 30, 2006
  7. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    I am listening to you, and the only way I think the hearts and minds can really be won in anything even resembling the short-term is complete and utter capitulation on the side of the 'jihad'.
     
    #147 malorn, Jan 30, 2006
  8. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    Yeah, and we smiled with relief when the A-bomb was dropped. TWICE. 60 years later, POW's piled naked in a pyramid is somehow more shocking...
     
    #148 Mystery Squid, Jan 30, 2006
  9. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    The world has chosen to learn from this experience and agreed a long time ago that killing innocents to further your own cause is wrong.

    If the US is to hold to that principle, we must show restraint... and *I'm* say that we certainly DO show restraint on the battlefield today...

    But from what i've read of your argument, you seem to be saying that we're showing TOO MUCH restraint... geez... you are old school....

    In all seriousness, would you have flinched if the US dropped some tactical nukes during the Afghanistan or Iraq wars?
     
    #149 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  10. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    Times change. In this regard, for the better. The nuclear era and the cold war were a dark time for the US.
     
    #150 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  11. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    There is this thread of extremism all throughout muslim culture... dormant in moderates, but if pushed, they will become jihadist themselves... even if you were to focus all of your effort to wiping out all of the existing terrorists, the "innocents" you may or may not have tried to protect from collateral damage would reorganize and embrace extremism once again...

    That's the recipie for unending war.
     
    #151 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  12. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    It should make EVERYONE uncomfortable...it's a terrible thing. I'm worried if it doesn't make you uncomfortable.

    My point is that we in the US claim to be of superior morals and have a superior government. We claim that Al Quaida is "evil". We claim that we are only fighting this battle to help people (refering primarily to Iraq here).

    It just seems to me that we should try to show that in every possible way, if it be true. My point was that just b/c Al Quaida takes a stance that they don't care about the deaths of innocent people doesn't mean that we have to stoop to that low level too. In fact, if we truely wish to win those "hearts and minds" it seems we should go to extraordiary lengths to protect those innocent people in our effort to rid the world of those who are evil.
     
    #152 efusco, Jan 30, 2006
  13. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    Bingo.
     
    #153 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  14. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    You don't need nukes and I would be totally against anything but conventional weapons. Remember the carpet bombing of hanoi. It turns out that several sources now claim the north vietnamese were days from surrendering. The images on tv every night forced nixon to quit, but it was working. I am not for carpet bombing of cities either just for letting the military use any other means to win.
     
    #154 malorn, Jan 30, 2006
  15. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    Then why draw the lines? If you want the military to use any other means, why draw the lines at carpet bombing or nuclear weapons?

    They are our most effective weapons of demoralization. We could have wiped out all of bagdad... probably got Saddam and all the rest too... why didn't we? Why did you draw a line?
     
    #155 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
  16. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    That makes 4 times you have tried to put words in my mouth. I NEVER claimed it to be a total failure. But I didn't presume it to be a success either. My point was very simple...show that we killed innocent people and didn't kill the only high value target the US claimed that we had killed.


    To my utter GI distress I'm carefully reading everything you write.

    I, too, am sure that we have 'hits' that aren't reported...prob. those one's being tortured in secret EU prisons by the CIA.... but I believe that with the extensive press coverage we'd be hearing a heck of a lot more if there was more to report.

    No more than you assume it must be OK since it's "our" government and president saying so.


    And that's a good thing. But the number of innocent Iraqis number in the 10s of thousands...granted many killed by terrorists. But unless we find some solutions to bring an end to this thing many more will die for many years to come. And we need to find a way to stop this.
     
    #156 efusco, Jan 30, 2006
  17. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    I truly wish there would NEVER be another war but I studying human history I don't htink that is realistic. If there is war I think the US using its arsenal completely(no unconventional weapons) is appropriate and will actaully save lives in the long run. I hate to keep going back to world war II, but what if that war was being fought in the same way as today's war on terror or the war in Iraq. It might not have ended until the 50's and could have ended differently.
     
    #157 malorn, Jan 30, 2006
  18. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

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    You might argue forever about topography and military statistics, what is secret, what is not, this is all bunch of crap if you can't comprehend that there is a universal global stance anti-US involvement in Iraq and it’s a well known FAILURE. Whether you like it or not you are in an extreme minority for the “war†in Iraq.

    The involvement created resistance among Iraqis that you seem to call terrorism, where just some of it fits under the umbrella of terrorism.
     
    #158 maggieddd, Jan 30, 2006
  19. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    So, what you're trying to tell us is that the "war on terrorism" is creating MORE terrorists?
     
    #159 hyo silver, Jan 30, 2006
  20. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    Again, why draw the line at conventional weapons? What's the difference?

    The fact is, international conventions for war were put in place because of the actions of the "losers" in WWII... if we are to ensure that we never have a war like that again, we must stand up to those very same principles...

    To relax our moral standards back to WWII levels means that we haven't learned a thing in a century.
     
    #160 LaughingMan, Jan 30, 2006
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