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Seized caliper

Discussion in 'Prius c Technical Discussion' started by cyclopathic, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Phenolic and metal pistons have their own distinct quirks. The cylinder bore can always corrode, but you won't see the piston itself rust if it's phenolic, while a metal one can. Under very particular conditions (use on RVs in a well-known study, which sit unused months of the year absorbing water and not getting heated to drive it out), phenolic ones can swell, which metal ones won't. I think I can remember exactly one case on PriusChat of swelling being the cause of a stuck piston.

    A metal piston will conduct a lot more of the heat of braking back into the brake fluid than a phenolic one will. A metal one might not chip or crack if blown from the caliper with compressed air without precautions, where a phenolic one might. (Blowing out either kind of piston without precautions is not recommended.) On balance of all these considerations, a lot of manufacturers have been moving toward the phenolics.

    The "anti-rust coating" on the slightly-less-cheap rebuilt calipers is laughable; the one I bought for my Gen 1 was red powder in a matter of weeks. That meant my experience was exactly what the guy on the Porsche enthusiast forum predicted:

    I assume, though, that the c caliper is aluminum, as they have been on Prii starting with Gen 2, which can make its own "anti-rust coating", so that might not be as big a deal.

    -Chap
     
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  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Maybe Toyota USA's silence on brake fluid change, coupled with the concept that Prius brakes are very lightly used, hardly need attention? Brake fluid accumulates water over time.
     
  3. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    They are not aluminum on C/Yaris/xD for sure and OEM piston isn't phenolic. It is cheap bottom of the barrel POS which Toyota has guts to price at $300.
     
  4. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    The fact that it is a passanger side it is dust cap failure or overheating and sucking water on cooldown. I did take it to BRP back 3 years ago in November and I think it rained at some point.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Anybody have a currently paid up techinfo subscription, or a copy of the c _New Car Features_ manual, to see the caliper specs?

    -Chap
     
  6. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    Installed new rebuilt caliper yesterday. Very nice rebuild done by Centric nice touches like silver coating golden color titanium nitride coated caliper to bracket bolts, new brake pad hardware and new banjo bolt and washers. Unfortunately bolt was 12mm so I have reused original 14mm.

    Brake pads had alot of life left in them (at least 60%) so they went back. Bled brakes, packed core.. car's just keeps rolling now and actually accelerates when you step. On the way home got 55.9 MPG and last time it was 47.. huge difference.
     
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  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    This was through Rock Auto, $36? That's the way to go.
     
  8. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    Yeah RA, $36.99 plus core and round trip shipping
     
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  9. zen_

    zen_ Junior Member

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    Are you sure that Centric caliper is actually painted? I have had great luck with Centric rotors in the past, but not their pads or calipers. The 3K mile caliper warranty actually bit me in the butt on my last car after two of the units started leaking after less than a year. Having said that, I wouldn't have a great deal more faith in the Cardone calipers that are definitely painted.
     
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Did it look nice, shiny, spiffy like this in the box?

    [​IMG]

    So did the one I bought. Here it was five weeks after installing on the car:

    [​IMG]

    Maybe yours will turn out to have a more effective "rustproof" coating. For $36? We can hope....

    -Chap
     
  11. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    Any time I change a caliper I also change the brake hose. I have been burnt in the past by not doing it.

    I experienced one of those brake hoses that wouldn't let the fluid return to the reservoir.
     
  12. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    My mechanic said the same thing he had more than a few cases when hose internally collapsed and would not return fluid. He had me to open the bleeder to see if it releases caliper. It didn't so it wasn't a hose but the caliper itself.
     
  13. Elektroingenieur

    Elektroingenieur Senior Member

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    New Car Features for the Prius c doesn’t have much to say about the front brakes:

    1. OUTLINE
    (a) A ventilated disc brake is used.

    2. SPECIFICATION
    Brake Type: Ventilated Disc
    Caliper Type: PE54 (22V)
    Pad Area: 38.6 cm² (5.98 in.²)
    Wheel Cylinder Diameter: 54 mm (2.12 in.)
    Rotor Size (Diameter × Thickness): 255 mm × 22 mm (10.04 in. × 0.87 in.)
    Pad Material: PV565H-FG​

    I couldn’t find anything that explains what “PE54 (22V)” means, though the numbers match the wheel cylinder diameter and the rotor thickness in millimeters, respectively.
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    That's fabulous! I always kind of thought the c was the spiritual descendant of the Gen 1, but now we know it's more than skin deep:

    pe54.png

    The part number is different from the Gen 1 PE54 though, so they must have changed something.

    Hmm, the Gen 2 New Car Features used kind of the same designation also. It has a two-column comparison of the 2004 Gen 2 caliper to the 2003 Gen 1. It calls them both PE54C (but it says the pad material changed from PN540H-FG to PS558H-FF).

    But we know the Gen 1 PE54C was cast iron with a steel piston, and the Gen 2 PE54C was aluminum with a phenolic piston (as is the Gen 3 liftback front caliper).

    No end to the mysteries....

    -Chap
     
  15. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    The FG numbers in pad material stand for CoF with F, G and H are representative of DOT ratings. There are 2 of them first one is for continues use second for initial.. F ~0.35 and G ~0.45 IIRC.

    What puzzles me ceramic pads usually rated as GF for soft initial bite. These are rated FG.. were the numbers reversed? or they just fade?

    Edit: I stand corrected dyslexia got better of me first letter is for initial bite. These are typical ceramic pads
    DOT Pad Codes
     
    #35 cyclopathic, Oct 8, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
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  16. ztanos

    ztanos All-around Geek!

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    So our sample size of 2 Americans doesn't fit the overweight 'Murican propaganda that you put out there.

    If you have a high rate of elevation change on your commute, then yes, you could be using the brakes more significantly. Hopefully you're checking them more regularly as well since you fit into the severe conditions category.

    I have a family and plenty of friends that I chauffeur around. Doesn't change the visuals of the car any... the Corolla still doesn't get 50+ and the full-sized Prius in 2012 looked like an egg. So blanket statements of "everyone else" is I'm sure isn't true.

    I agree about the stealerships. Again, you are the first I've seen on Priuschat of any members complaining of a failed caliper, though. Outliers happen with any car or brand, that's why lemon laws are in place. Hopefully your newly purchased caliper will last longer and you don't experience the same issues Chapman was warning about.
     
  17. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    If you consider statistics to be propaganda then you are right, sure. Statistically nearly three-quarters of American men and more than 60% of women are obese or overweight (have BMI 25 or more).

    With regards to Corolla vs Prius C Toyota sells 200,000+ Corollas annually vs <20,000 C, so while you and I have chosen C, majority don't.

    Under specific conditions C gets very good mileage but overall not. Once you make correction for Toyota's optimistic MPG counter real life Mitsubishi Mirage MPG is only 10-12% less and that car is 1/2 the price.

    Corollas get 35mpg nowdays so the gap isn't that huge and if you exclude hypercommuters most Americans don't drive that much at <1000mi and <10gal a month difference car payments and insurance make Corolla cheaper.. just saying.
     
  18. ztanos

    ztanos All-around Geek!

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    I was just commenting that you threw out a blanket, "everyone else". :D If one doesn't do it, it can't be every one.
     
  19. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    I stand corrected 9 out of 10 choose Corolla 3 out of 4 overweight.

    Let's get back to brakes
     
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  20. ztanos

    ztanos All-around Geek!

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    New calipers looking like ChapmanF's yet?