1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Self-driving Uber car kills pedestrian in Tempe, AZ

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by pilotgrrl, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    891
    1,796
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoan in TX
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    SAN FRANCISCO — A woman in Tempe, Ariz., has died after being hit by a self-driving car operated by Uber, in what appears to be the first known death of a pedestrian struck by an autonomous vehicle on a public road.

    The Uber vehicle was in autonomous mode with a human safety driver at the wheel when it struck the woman, who was crossing the street outside of a crosswalk, the Tempe police said in a statement. The episode happened on Sunday around 10 p.m. The woman was not publicly identified.


    Uber said it had suspended testing of its self-driving cars in Tempe, Pittsburgh, San Francisco and Toronto.

    “Our hearts go out to the victim’s family. We are fully cooperating with local authorities in their investigation of this incident,” an Uber spokeswoman, Sarah Abboud, said in a statement.


    The fatal crash will most likely raise questions about regulations for self-driving cars. Testing of self-driving cars is already underway for vehicles that have a human driver ready to take over if something goes wrong, but states are starting to allow companies to test cars without a person in the driver’s seat. This month, California said that, in April, it would start allowing companies to test autonomous vehicles without anyone behind the wheel.

    Arizona already allows self-driving cars to operate without a driver behind the wheel. Since late last year, Waymo, the self-driving car unit from Google’s parent company Alphabet, has been using cars without a human in the driver’s seat to pick up and drop off passengers there. The state has largely taken an accommodating approach, promising that it would help keep the driverless car industry free from regulation. As a result, technology companies have flocked to Arizona to test their self-driving vehicles.


    Autonomous cars are expected to ultimately be safer than human drivers, because they don’t get distracted and always observe traffic laws. However, researchers working on the technology have struggled with how to teach the autonomous systems to adjust for unpredictable human driving or behavior.

    An Uber self-driving car was involved in another crash a year ago in Tempe. In that collision, one of Uber’s Volvo XC90 sport utility vehicles was hit when the driver of another car failed to yield, causing the Uber vehicle to roll over onto its side. The car was in self-driving mode with a safety driver behind the wheel, but police said the autonomous vehicle had not been at fault.


    In 2016, a man driving his Tesla using Autopilot, the car company’s self-driving software, died on a state highway in Florida when it crashed into a tractor-trailer that was crossing the road in front of his car. Federal regulators later ruled there were no defects in the system to cause the accident.

    The National Transportation Safety Board was sending a small team of investigators to Arizona to gather information about the Uber crash, said Eric Weiss, an N.T.S.B. spokesman.



    https://nyti.ms/2u3QDYx

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    RCO and HPrimeAdvanced like this.
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    108,038
    49,114
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    not good, and refutes a lot of things autonomous vehicle proponents have been saying.

    to start with, it shows that having a human snoozing behind the wheel as a safety feature is an unreliable backup.
     
  3. HPrimeAdvanced

    HPrimeAdvanced Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    2,303
    3,519
    0
    Location:
    Anaheim, CA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Kids, I'm afraid it's going to get a lot worse than this!! Our society is just NOT ready for this kind of crazy and dangerous experiment. If these idiots want to test these nutjob Monotonous Cars, they should do so with their own families as guinea pigs; you'd see how quickly they'd stop risking everybody's life. There are just SOME things we can't and shouldn't do in our "modern" (and terrorist-filled) society.
    When the bus full of kids, or a tanker truck are involved in an autonomous accident, people will shake their heads, but like the NRA, nobody will be able to stop it.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
    AChoiredTaste.com
     
  4. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    891
    1,796
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoan in TX
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    There are too many challenging events that autonomous cars can't figure out how to work their way around yet.

    An alert human should really sit behind the wheel and be prepared to take over the vehicle instantaneously.

    @HPrime Advanced has an idea with some merit, although I don't believe the US is terrorist-filled. There are quite a few people with awfully bad ideas, e.g. white supremacists, Nazis, KKK, gun nuts, but not those who instigated 9/11.

    Artificial intelligence is still artificial stupidity in many ways.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    bisco, nednvermont and HPrimeAdvanced like this.
  5. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    891
    1,796
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoan in TX
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    People riding in self-driving cars that crash could find themselves unable to hold the manufacturer accountable if legislation currently pending on Capitol Hill is passed, consumer advocates warn.

    They caution that the legislation under consideration in the Senate benefits big tech and car companies at the expense of average Americans.

    Legislators have pushed to clear the way for self-driving vehicles. The House unanimously passed a related bill in September. But critics warn that autonomous vehicles won't be perfect, and could have defects that lead to bad crashes. Like all computer systems, they will be vulnerable to hacking.

    Among other potential problems, research has shown, for instance, that placing stickers on a stop sign can cause a self-driving car to misinterpret it as a speed limit sign, which could trigger a crash at an intersection.

    Critics are concerned that the bill, known as the AV Start Act, does not prohibit forced arbitration between autonomous vehicle manufacturers and consumers. A person badly injured while riding in a self-driving car would not be able to take part in a class action lawsuit, or sue the maker of the technology. Instead, disputes would be settled in arbitration. Experts say arbitration shifts the balance of power in the favor of big businesses, because they generally hire the arbitrator and will be its repeat customer.

    Arbitration proceedings are also private, so use of them would mean the public is more likely to be kept in the dark about flaws in self-driving vehicles.

    "The nightmare scenario is that someone is hurt because of a defect and it's dealt with through a confidential arbitration proceeding that nobody knows about, and then more people are hurt because no one found out about it," Ed Walters, who teaches robotics law at Georgetown Law and Cornell Tech, told CNN. "Congress could stick up for the right to sue by prohibiting these kind of clauses, but so far they haven't."

    Wednesday afternoon, five Democratic Senators released a letter calling for changes in the bill in which they outlined concerns including the bill potentially pre-empting state and local traffic laws. But they were silent on the topic of forced arbitration.

    Related: How free self-driving car rides could change everything

    "No one is suggesting anyone is looking to intentionally put something dangerous on the road. But it's human nature that the less trouble we're going to get in, the less cautious we may choose to be," said Jason K. Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a non-profit advocacy group.

    "Going back 50 years, I've never seen a more brazen attempt to escape the rule of safety law, and the role of the courts to be accessible to their victims," longtime consumer advocate Ralph Nader told CNN. "With their unproven, secretive technology that's fully hackable, the autonomous vehicle industry wants to close the door on federal safety protection and close the door to the court room."

    Ridesharing companies Uber and Lyft already include forced arbitration in their terms of service with passengers. Consumers will likely first experience self-driving technology in a similar format, by requesting a ride through a smartphone app.

    "It's another example of large companies being able to tilt the table their way in terms of service agreements. It's a power shift created in a contract that nobody reads. Everybody clicks 'I accept,'" Walters said. "You have rights to sue unless you sign them away. And companies have gotten very good at making you sign them away."

    Related: For self-driving cars, car washes are a nightmare

    The largest players in the self-driving car industry, Waymo, GM's Cruise, Ford, Zoox, Toyota, Tesla, Uber and Lyft, all declined to comment for this story. The Self-Driving Coalition for Safer Streets, an industry lobbying group, also declined to comment.

    "Imagine if I put my daughter in the back of a self-driving Uber to get to soccer practice, and the vehicle can't see in the fog or rain, and there's a tragedy," Levine said. "My level of ability to hold the company accountable is entirely constricted by something buried in tons and tons of pages of terms of service, for downloading the app."

    Loophole would protect self-driving car companies from lawsuits - Mar. 14, 2018

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    RCO and HPrimeAdvanced like this.
  6. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    2,326
    1,812
    18
    Location:
    Chicago western burbs
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    and kangaroos
     
    hkmb, pilotgrrl and HPrimeAdvanced like this.
  7. HPrimeAdvanced

    HPrimeAdvanced Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    2,303
    3,519
    0
    Location:
    Anaheim, CA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    To me the worst scenario yet is the school bus or family car struck by an autonomous car. Will arbitration and other "rights limiting" actions be forced on the innocent victims. NO, they can keep their autonomous cars. Put 'em on a race track, or use autonomous robots for boxing matches, but don't jam them down my throat on my public streets, Big Brother.
    There's such a thing as overthinking technology. And these idiots know nothing about the premise, "Keep It Simple Stupid! (KISS).


    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
    AChoiredTaste.com
     
    RCO, nednvermont and pilotgrrl like this.
  8. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    7,028
    1,116
    0
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    "The Uber vehicle was in autonomous mode with a human safety driver at the wheel when it struck the woman, who was crossing the street outside of a crosswalk, the Tempe police said in a statement."

    Did the woman look both ways before crossing the street? Didn't see she the car? I'm sorry, not Uber's fault. Too many careless people in this country.
     
    uber2016 and hkmb like this.
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,845
    11,387
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    We can't say one way or the other. Outside the crosswalk can mean just being a foot to either side, or stepping out from between two vans in the middle of the block.
     
  10. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,455
    1,703
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    A serious accident with a new technology gets a lot of attention, rightly or wrongly deserved. It would be important to see number and type and seriousness of accidents with autonomous driving per mile vs. humans per mile.
     
  11. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,195
    4,184
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    According to news reports this morning, police report she was 60 feet away from the nearest crosswalk and "crossed suddenly".

    Completely unfounded. How do you know the human was snoozing? This refutes nothing proponents have been saying.
    Additional information may, but so far, no.
    It does show that pedestrians not following rules/laws are taking risks. Weather the drivers are humans, or AI.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  12. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    891
    1,796
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoan in TX
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I am not wishing ill of the woman who lost her life, however, AI needs to be able to account for human error, whether it's jaywalking, cyclists weaving through traffic, leaving the driver's side door open on a busy street, etc.

    Maybe a better training solution would be to have testing grounds using robots and robotics to simulate as many human error situations as possible. I would think that someplace like the Northwestern Traffic Institute or NHTSA would be able to help by providing use cases.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    RCO, HPrimeAdvanced and bisco like this.
  13. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2017
    1,148
    1,171
    3
    Location:
    Western Massachusetts
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    NO! Being careless should not warrant a death sentence! I am sure you've been careless before and yelled at by a driver that was annoyed with your behavior, but spared your life.
     
    HPrimeAdvanced and pilotgrrl like this.
  14. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,195
    4,184
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Some companies are already using controlled testing grounds. GM, as I recall, built a whole mini city in Michigan.
    No AI will ever avoid all accidents. However, AI will be able to avoid more accidents than humans do. That is the goal.

    Here is more information for anyone interested. There should be a press conference later today as well.
    Uber ‘likely’ not at fault in deadly self-driving car crash, police chief says - The Verge
     
    pilotgrrl likes this.
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,195
    4,184
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Correct, someone being careless doesn't "deserve" death.
    However, if I am careless about my insulin shots, I could die. If a first responder is careless about their job, people could die. And yes, if I carelessly, or criminally walk out onto on city street, I stand a higher chance being killed if it is not in a crosswalk.
    It doesn't mean I deserved it, but it is more likely to happen.
     
    pilotgrrl likes this.
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    108,038
    49,114
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    maybe a noisemaker would have helped.
     
    HPrimeAdvanced likes this.
  17. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2017
    1,148
    1,171
    3
    Location:
    Western Massachusetts
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    "Criminally walk out on city street"?!!! What does that even mean?! Are you suggesting that j-walking is or should be criminal? I hope not. In any case, I agree with most of what you wrote, but this touches an ethical problem of human vs. machine decision making and abilities to discern on ethical vs. programmatic basis.
     
    bisco likes this.
  18. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    891
    1,796
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoan in TX
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    ProPublica jointly published a story with
    the Florida Times Union that might surprise you.

    THE JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF’S OFFICE issues hundreds of pedestrian citations a year, drawing on an array of 28 separate statutes governing how people get around on foot in Florida’s most populous city. There is, of course, the straightforward jaywalking statute, barring people from crossing against a red light. But in Jacksonville, pedestrians can also be ticketed for crossing against a yellow light, for “failing to cross a street at a right angle,” for not walking on the left side of a road when there are no sidewalks, or alternatively for not walking on a sidewalk when one is available.

    The sheriff’s office says the enforcement of the full variety of pedestrian statutes is essential to keeping people alive in a city with one of the highest pedestrian fatality rates in the nation. The office also says the tickets are a useful crime-fighting tool, allowing officers to stop suspicious people and question them for guns and or drugs.

    What the analysis does show is that the pedestrian tickets — typically costing $65, but carrying the power to damage one’s credit or suspend a driver’s license if unpaid — were disproportionately issued to blacks, almost all of them in the city’s poorest neighborhoods. In the last five years, blacks received 55 percent of all pedestrian tickets in Jacksonville, while only accounting for 29 percent of the population. Blacks account for a higher percentage of tickets in Duval County than any other large county in Florida.

    Blacks, then, were nearly three times as likely as whites to be ticketed for a pedestrian violation. Residents of the city’s three poorest zip codes were about six times as likely to receive a pedestrian citation as those living in the city’s other, more affluent 34 zip codes.

    Tickets for some of the less familiar statutes were issued even more disproportionately to blacks. Seventy-eight percent of all tickets written for “walking in the roadway where sidewalks are provided” were issued to blacks. As well, blacks accounted for 68 percent of all recipients of tickets issued for “failing to cross the road at a right angle or shortest route.”

    Walking While Black

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    RCO, hkmb and HPrimeAdvanced like this.
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    108,038
    49,114
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    now the difficult part, proving that some of them weren't breaking the law.

    or that whites are, but are not always ticketed.
     
    RCO, pilotgrrl and HPrimeAdvanced like this.