Servicing Air Conditioning Systems

Discussion in 'Videos' started by Protec, Aug 21, 2021.

  1. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    I’ve been watching a YouTube channel for a couple of years or so now. In particular, Tom Lech (a member on here) or which, I have to say, I’m a MASSIVE FAN. I’ve picked up lots of information and tips etc.

    I have some questions for anyone to answer, but in particular, Tom if you would please, perhaps we could dispel some myths and ALL learn something. I’ve not commented on YouTube because I don’t have an account.

    I do not want this to become a keyboard assault on anyone but healthy accurate debate must be welcomed. I’m sure the moderators will, errrrmmmmmm, moderate the less helpful vociferous and downright rude.

    so, here goes with the first of many questions………….

    This list of 4 is not exhaustive……. Always going to be the older refrigerants still unconverted and oddballs.

    In the main then, he way I see relatively modern automotive air conditioning is……..
    1. R134a fossil fuel
    2. R134a Ev & Hybrid derivatives.
    3. R1234yf fossil fuel
    4. R1234yf Ev & Hybrid derivatives

    PAG oils, non EV&Hybrid
    PAG oils EV&Hybrid
    POE oils, non EV&Hybrid
    POE oils EV&Hybrid

    (PAG = Polyalkylene Glycol & POE = Polyolester)

    We simply do not know for certain what lubricant (or blend) is in the vehicle, by the manufacturers or anyone having worked on this vehicle prior to us. All I can do is ensure any oil I put into this vehicle is accurate and SAFE. (For EV&Hybrids) All we can do is try our very best .

    A bit long winded but bear with me please………..

    Q. How many line sets do you use so as to NEVER cross contaminate NON-EV&HYBRID oils into an EV&HYBRID system.
    Q2. Do you flush the hoses after every vehicle. As I understand it, even droplets of oil from contaminated hoses in an electric compressor can compromise its insulation properties should a fault develop.
    Q3. Do you use specific recovery machines for each refrigerant/oil spec to ensure no cross contamination, not so much the refrigerant but the oil, even microscopic droplets via the vapour side.

    No one specific video to pick on, sorry.
    Also struggling to find and specific definitive answers

    ps: I have spoken at length with Richard Doran (managing director of Primalec (Snow Leopard Lubricants)) who confirms that “universal oil” is fiction. Use the right oil for the specific replacement and do NOT cross contaminate EV&Hybrids with Non-EV&Hybrids

    Anyone got thoughts on this at all?
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agree 100% on lech, he knows his business
     
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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  4. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    Forgot to say…….

    I also have other linesets, they are older contaminated hoses etc for when I stumble across blends and undefinable’crap’ which has passed by other technicians as refrigerant.
     
  5. lech auto air conditionin

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    Excellent question I hope we don’t offend any keyboard warriors or a couch potato engineers.

    There is no universal oil ! But it doesn’t mean somebody cannot go out and stick something in there that will not immediately destroy the system and get away with it.

    how about that universal coolant that we could use in every year make model vehicle

    then we have that universal power steering fluid that we could stick in every year make model vehicle

    don’t forget to mention that universal brake fluid that we can stick in the older systems that used to use mineral oil systems and stick mineral oil in our newer brake systems.

    let’s not forget our good old friend universal engine oil that we could stick in anything from our grandfathers 1 ton 1950 Chevy flat big pick up to our 2022 Prius prime or Honda fit one engine oil for all.

    I almost forgot that’s super duty special universal transmission oil that we can put in a Prius or 1965 Dodge Daytona with 400 hp manual transmission

    and I just about left out differential universal oil because we almost don’t have differentials anymore I forgot about that

    i’m not going to go into the science or the physics about refrigerant oils and the purpose for the different viscosity and the different chemistries and how certain seals get affected by different chemistry. Or the insulation coating on electrical windings in electric compressors how they get affected by certain chemistries of refrigerant oil’s it’s not instant it’s over a longer period of time.


    Gauges hoses cross-contamination. A different refrigerant or different oil.

    I do own five sets of Digital gauges and 13 sets of old analog gauges I have not fully retired yet slowly cannibalizing them stripping them down to keep the last ones working usually use them on burns out dirty systems with metal debris and burnt oil

    as for a cleaning gauges 99% isotope alcohol your syringe or whatever method of injection turkey baster whatever you like your nitrogen tank clean dry high-pressure gas to push it through.

    Do not do as I do do as I say I like to use 600 psi of pressure dry nitrogen to blow through my hoses to clean and flush through Isotope alcohol.

    Then throw it on the vacuum pump and bring it down to 30 to 90 µm to thoroughly outgas the rubber from any remaining refrigerant any remaining moisture.

    as for recovery units I own three recovery units small portable not including the large recovery machine and recycling machine
    That are big and slow and cumbersome that you everything at the speed of a sloth

    exact same thing goes for recovery machines on the automotive they throw everything in one big box so you can’t swap things out or clean everything and you have to keep all refrigerant and oil separate from the hybrids from the other vehicles

    because on the big machines recovery recycle recharge you’re always using the same hoses and all the same internal piping in equipment so you cannot easily just blow through one in isotope alcohol and high pressure nitrogen and clean out all the piping and valves contain in the machine so you’re stuck with using one machine for different oils one machine for hybrids one machine for different refrigerant,

    with a small recovery machine you’re not concerned about oil contamination they are in previous to any kind of damage you could mix all the oils in the world including salad dressing oil with water and salt and pepper and it will not damage the machines unlike the pieces of garbage the poor souls in the automotive industry or force the buy.
    If you get the wrong refrigerant sealant chemical for stopping leaks it will plug up the valves and damage them out of warranty at a very great expense of repair or a replace the equipment

    The small commercial industrial portable recovery units are built like a hummer bulletproof nearly indestructible I can suck in 100 times more sealant in a concentrated mixture form and not damage do units at all whatsoever.

    It’s all going into a recycle cylinder that gets sent off for processing by the chemical company for refrigerant or by yourself through a machine that separates out all the oil separate particulate matter remove the acid remove the moisture distilled the refrigerant and leaves you out with a peer clean chemical on the other side and I forgot to remove the air

    And you prove this by using your refrigerant analyzer that should be absolutely mandatory for every shop no if’s and’s or butts about it no exceptions to the rule very black-and-white definitive answer you either have this piece of equipment or get out of the business

    Because there is a lot of contaminated refrigerant out there

    I recently made a video on a customer who wanted me to put flammable refrigerant in his car so I made that video there’s customers sticking to stuff in their cars all over the country with no labels and no special fittings and because most owners the shops are lazy cheap or ignorant and do not own a refrigerant analyzer they just hook their machine up to the car and pull in a different refrigerant and mix it with all the rest of the refrigerant.

    Don’t blame the unknowing customer who is trying to save a buck and got suckered into a magazine ad or a YouTube advertisement for some other refrigerant then what should be in the vehicle because it was a lot cheaper.

    you have to blame the owner of the automotive business who is either lazy cheap or ignorant and needs to be educated or removed from this trade for not having a refrigerant analyzer.

    with a small mobile recovery unit they are cheap small and you can own many of them in one shop and isolate them for each and every refrigerant if you want.

    or between vehicles you’re only worried about the refrigerant cross-contamination because all mixed oil’s get removed out of the refrigerant anyway in the recycling process so it doesn’t even matter if you put motor oil in their transmission oil in there or refrigerant oil all mixed together it will not come out in the end process it will all be removed

    So you use nitrogen to flush out your recovery machine between jobs between different refrigerant and since we all know we all have four port manifold where the fourth line Can go down to a vacuum pump prior to your refrigerant recovery can you recover your recovery unit down to the one or 200 µm level completely out of gas in the unit after you flush it out with dry nitrogen.

    Now you’re ready to perform your next recovery on any gas you please

    Of course we all know every shop has dry nitrogen in there bay because they’re a real shop doing air conditioning not a pretend make-believe shop. Who just wants to make money but does not want to pay for tools or equipment or training

    oh one other lubricant not mention PVE refrigerant oil

    and yes R12 there are still many vehicles out there I nearly do on a daily basis I have a few specialty shops that specifically go out and look for old 60s and 70s and 80s vehicles to restore them and resell them and I’m constantly called in to recover the old R 12 refrigerant

    It is still legal to recover and resell and even purchase R12 that was manufactured 30 years ago that there are still millions of tons of around the country and warehouses that is completely legal to sell and use.
    It’s just banned from being manufactured anymore in our country that is the only thing that cannot be done with it so there’s no new supply.

    But none of these questions or topics would be up for discussion for the individuals who are actually curious and wanna know the answers they were joined MACS and attend the yearly expos for training and education on all the newest refrigerants newest vehicles newest procedures every year as they get changed and updated

    The same individuals who opt in Buell old information out of magazines or they took their EPA certificate test 20 or 30 years ago with archaic information that nearly no longer applies today and keep spewing it out as if it has any reference on today’s refrigerant.

    Being a MACS member go to the yearly expo training seminars that are held around the country

    The EPA shows up and gives their talk and introduces the newest changes for the years rules laws and regulations governing refrigerant so anybody with questions would of course have gone and sat through these meetings and know the up-to-date and latest information and we would not be having this discussion right now.

    Out here in California it’s called the Bureau of Automotive repair. Went through a few iterations of name changes but still the same entity in different states it’s called something different

    But of course again the same individuals who put out information on forms and YouTube I seem to never see them sitting at the millions with the Bureau of Automotive repair when you’re at the MACS yearly expo and convention meeting the lady or come out introduced her self and start going over some of the latest rules laws and regulations governing refrigerant when it comes to the automotive industry and the rights of the customer and the rules and regulations that shops and technicians must follow.

    One thing I notice when showing up to these meetings there’s some of the least attended bike shop owners are technicians who consider this a boring topic and not worth it attending

    But yet they’ll get behind a keyboard and start spewing out information they know nothing about or because they took their EPA test back in 1992 very well seasoned expert on the topic without ever once attending any of the EPA classes or bureau of automotive repair classes amazing how that works.

    They should have never allowed the old refrigerant EPA certification program to be grandfathered in it should be mandatory that these old dinosaurs either hang up their gauges and get out of the business or get recertified and go for the new latest information so these questions do not have to keep being reasked.

    I periodically post and put up on my YouTube videos the free webinars for the latest EPA testing and training that anybody could watch that is sponsored by Robinair and put on by MACS

    Some of my least viewed videos are the ones where I comment and it Hass to do with education and learning to go watch the website and actually learn something.
    Interesting how the automotive technician or owners mindset work that anything to do with learning is taboo difficult and a waste of time. Yet they have a Opinion and will spew false information from their imagination.

    Did I make this long winded enough

    When did I successfully poke some jabs at some snowflakes or logs so the moderator has to step in and do some editing. I really tried gently

    for those who are serious I will see you at the MACS convention and expo we will be attending the training classes together sitting down in front of the EPA seeing what’s the latest and greatest news listening to the Bureau of Automotive repair get their take on what’s going on and what’s coming down the pipeline as new refrigerant and new rules laws and regulations and we will all know this together. See you in Florida this year
     
  6. lech auto air conditionin

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    It was 99% isotope alcohol to clean them out on your refrigerant gages line sets (refrigerant hoses)
    Use high-pressure dry nitrogen as a propellant to push through the alcohol at high velocity high-pressure wear eye protection wear face protection where ear protection if that refrigerant hose gets away from you at extremely high pressure in velocity the brass and then hose can flip around really fast and take out and eye in an instant.

    And a high-pitched sonic sound releasing from the tip of the hose of the high-pressure nitrogen is damaging to the ears it is very very loud.

    Can you perform this task in the open away from people away from cars just in case your hoes and gets away from you and doesn’t slap into a customers door panel and put a ding in a scratch in the door when that brass fitting goes flying around and hit something if you don’t hold onto it tight.

    then throw your hose on the vacuum pump bring it down below 100 µm and you now have a clean dry sterile hose ready for use

    of course you own a micron gauge hint hint

    Accutools BluVac+ Professional Digital Micron Gauge with Coupler and Bluetooth
     
  7. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    Good thing I have fiber internet. Quite the treatise! I rarely see a moderator moderate on Priuschat although it would be nice in other threads.
     
  8. lech auto air conditionin

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    I got censored edited and had a thread closed down in previous chat and had restrictions put on me.
    Having some discussion arguments with a log who is suffering flatulence of the mouth and constipation of the brain.
    But it was interesting
     
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  9. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    Hi Tom,

    thanks for the reply.

    It was prickly to say the least.

    it’s exactly what I was trying to avoid, I didn’t want to enter into the rights and wrongs of the industry in the USA, or worldwide for that matter.

    I am a diagnostic technician, also ac diagnostician, yes I have all of the above tools, including O.F. Nitrogen and N95%H5% LeakTrace and a dozen dealer level scan tools, several oscilloscopes and equipment capable of generating pwm etc etc 99% alcohol…..

    now we’ve compared penis sizes……..

    I did say I cleaned my manifold after each use and then on to say 4 linesets+ other used rubbish/crap. You may feel I have come across like a clueless couch potato. Hmmmmmmmmm.

    I thought I’d asked a few meaningful questions.

    never mind, I’ll leave you to your long winded rants. Debate over.
     
  10. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    Seems you are the provocateur here... I know who I would moderate...
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Funny ... back when I was reading post #1 the first time, I somehow couldn't shake the feeling that (despite the bit about "MASSIVE FAN") it was being set up to pick a bar fight with Tom.

    Still getting that feeling. :)
     
  12. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    He had me at the line sets comment...
     
  13. lech auto air conditionin

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    You misunderstood me I loved all your questions and they were good and I knew where you were going with them

    It’s a few others that I know That will say oils not a big difference.

    And performing the correct methods don’t matter

    Everything you asked was perfectly valid.
    And I was glad to see Somebody would bring these questions out in the open to the light.

    and like quoted that there is no universal oil that is true and I’m glad you posted that.

    when I was trying to throw up some analogies of other nonexistent fairytale universal oils in different categories.
    Trying to spark some thinking of individuals to step back and look if there’s no such thing as a universal for all these other fluids then how does some company put some snake oil out there and call it universal refrigerant oil universal and there’s so many different types.

    As directed towards you as clueless by the questions that you asked I could tell you were far from clueless.
    You are just the type of person I would like to see in these forms put in your information to help educate the clueless.

    and I am not directing this towards the DYI person there is no way they could possibly know all this information.
    It’s the professionals who owns shops for work and shops who do the bad information and bad mechanical techniques who need to be educated.
    Because the DYI person or general public falls victim to those who either don’t have information or refuse to except the information or the shop owner is this too cheap to send his guys for training or buying equipment.

    And it’s the former members on Prius chat who fall victim going to shops that should actually not be called shops . They do air conditioning like children performing experiments without any knowledge of what they’re doing to collect the dollar.

    Sometimes I may sound a little hard especially when I just came off a professional or technical HVAC form in discussion over topics that some members may have no knowledge of but yet they put out false information

    And then I hop on over here to a form like PriusChat that is more of the general consumer population and DYI person and forget I’m not talking to other technicians in my trade I’m talking to the general public so I might come off as a marine drill sergeant.

    My strongest drive for technicians and even the occasional DYI backyard mechanic who makes his living out of his garage at home and it’s to join MACS attend some of the meeting classes and training seminars that are put on by the OEMs like General Motors and Toyota Nissan to get the latest information in training so at least their eyes are open and they are given resources to go seek further information to aid them in diagnosis and properly fixing consumers vehicles without burning up compressors. And then turning around and charging the customer to replace the compressor that they burnt out from lack of knowledge.

    The do it yourself person if they insist they want to use a can and a hose that is their choice and if they ask me what is the best way to do it I will occasionally assist them and try to walk them through doing it the best way they possibly can without a failure due to the result of doing it improperly.

    I have a big problem in my local area where a professional garage I get paid use the small cans especially the ones with every kind of additives in them on customers cars and I eventually get them having to do repairs or compressor replacement I have a big thing against shops who hacked vehicles no matter what they’re repairing whether it’s painting ,transmission drivability problems anything I’m an advocate for the consumer and want to execute (Isis style ) the shop owners of HACK shops that prey on the pocketbooks of the general public and treat them like walking ATMs driving into their shop.
     
  14. lech auto air conditionin

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    I will give the benefit of the doubt but he just misunderstood where I was aiming and directing my slightly forceful harshness towards other shop owners and technicians who refuse to educate themselves.

    And he mistakenly thought I was talking directly to him personally.

    I think I suffer from the same thing I notice many older people get as they age and lack of tolerance a lack of patience when I see wrong I want to right it.
    I don’t give up
     
  15. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    Hi Tom,

    yes, I thought you’d directed your comments about me. If not, I apologise. We got off on the wrong foot. Let’s make our peace.


    ok, yes……. The oils are a massive thing especially with cross contamination EV&HYBRIDs, I pondered long and hard about flushing linesets but decided on the 4 service specific sets and shitty sets for shitty jobs and just flushing the manifold after each job.

    I also have 4 recovery units…… again one for each of the 4 specifics….

    What are your thoughts on dedicated equipment sets for each task (you appear FAR busier than I’ll ever be) in that I mean, it may be unviable to do it this way???? At the moment I’m doing it the dedicated equipment way

    ps. I’ve not come across PVE oil yet.

    I also expect there will be a few more lurking assassins ready to bloody the new kid on the blocks nose, but I’ll decline to comment on those after this post.

    finally….. I really am a MASSIVE FANE, having watched every single one of your videos.
     
  16. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    FAN not FANE……..typo, sorry
     
  17. lech auto air conditionin

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    i’m a huge fan of dedicated equipment and hoses. You ever seen my hoses videos or my refrigerant gauge videos then you probably know how many hoses I own and how many refrigerant gauge sets I own.

    I just recently purchased four more 60 inch yellow jacket line sets with the additional optional 6 inch line ball valve connectors.
    And as you know just one set of those yellow jacket hoses sets you can buy two or three eBay or Amazon complete refrigerant gauge sets including hoses with 134 fittings


    I have flushing out my hoses and equipment down to a science and a art.
    It literally only takes me seconds because I always have nitrogen I always have alcohol pressurized in a cylinder filled with nitrogen and I always have vacuum pumps running.

    It’s not my way it’s not my invention this is all stuff my dad showed me before high school when I was a child as he was starting to teach me.

    When you attend one of the MACS expos seminars and training. This is a hot topic for discussion amongst the equipment manufacturers and equipment resellers and technicians about separate equipment also with the EPA trying to keep the gases separated so there’s no possibility of cross-contamination

    And believe me there’s a lot of cross-contamination going on out there I have the analyzer to prove it

    This is why many of the manufactures have moved away from putting two refrigerant gases in one machine sharing hoses.

    And any offbrand manufacturer that is still doing that because they’re trying to make a budget unit down to a price point should be avoided at all cost. Their mechanical devices and we all know mechanical devices malfunction and breakdown and don’t always operate as they were designed to
    So keeping everything separate in separate machines then there is no possibility of mistakes.

    it’s very easy and extremely fast if you own a solvent flush gun that is always pressurized up with nitrogen to just blow through your line sets. It’s as fast as simple as tying your shoes that’s about how long it takes.

    Oh by the way PVE then you probably have never worked on a Hyundai. Take a look at some of their labels attached to the side of the compressors

    If you download the MACS mobile diagnosis app onto your phone you’ll be able to scan the Vin plate barcode and it’ll instantly give you all the information on the car including what type of oil is in the vehicle.
    So you will know if you have ND– 14
    ND – 12
    ND – 11
    ND – 8
    ND – 9
    Those are all DENSO manufactures specified oil’s
    Or any one of the other 20 different manufactures specified part number oil.
    Including Ester (POE)

    but giving a quick 600 psi burst through your nitrogen tank through your refrigerant hose and then out both of your high side and low side refrigerant hoses does a really good job of cleaning out the residue.

    never mind any bullies just ignore them and they’re nothing more than dust in the wind keep your comments coming keep your information flowing we all stick our heads together and come up with better ways to service vehicles.
     
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  18. lech auto air conditionin

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    I don’t drink I get drunk off one beer and have a massive headache at 3 AM. Lol

    I do indulge sometimes on special occasions and just know I’m going to regret it the next day
     
  19. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    and at 60 I don’t bother too much either…… can’t remember the last time I was drunk or went in a bar for that matter after the onset of Covid-19
    I don’t bother with conflict either, after a few decades it’s easier to just keep quiet and avoid it altogether, picking a “fight” with anyone couldn’t be further from thetth
     
  20. Protec

    Protec Junior Member

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    I have a couple of pressurised flushing cylinders, I’ve only used them to flush the vehicles pipework. I’ve gone down the dedicated hose route.

    no, I’ve not had a Hyundai with PVE oil, only PAG46……. Last week, a Hyundai i10 small compact town car, R1234yf and PAG46e, new condenser/filter/dryer

    Please remember I’m in Europe, specifically the U.K. specs may differ per region/ climate?

    We (U.K.) generally (99% of cases) have only 3 oils, PAG46, PAG100 in both fossil fuel and in EV&Hybrids (PAG46e & PAG100e) and POE (MRL85) for fossil fuels and EV&Hybrids……. If it’s a manufacturer specific, I’d get that unique to the spec. (Technically 5 oils)
    The MRL85 is actually marketed as “universal” and drives me up the wall but it’s a cost implication for the garage workshops.

    Most Hondas I’ve worked on have POE.

    All PAG fossil fuel is not compatible with EV&HYBRIDS due to potential fault and harmful electric conductivity should a fault develop. I was initially going to flush hoses, but keep the couplers on and keep specific.

    I’ll look into the MACS app and give it a go here. I hope it works for European vehicles.

    I specialise in VAG who also have weird and wonderful specs almost by the model. That said, Richard Doran at Primalec (Snow Leopard) advises their oils are at OEM standard or above.

    We both test the refrigerant, but the big unknown is, I can’t test what lubricant is in the system both from the manufacturers or the previous technician. I reiterate, we can only try our very best.

    im loving the fieldpiece kit, I also followed your tutorial on silicone grease the valves. All good.

    Navac has just landed on our shores (called navtek here) although they manufacture the Value range of havoc kit, that’s been here a while.

    Another snippet of info, I make my own wiring harnesses to break into the compressor solenoid valve wiring, 4mm banana plugs, test the climate control from the car and wiring to the compressor (pulse width modulation) via Picoscope then drive the compressor solenoid manually (pwm driver) pushing the swash plate to max to test it. Proves one or the other.
    Downside is, manufacturers won’t sell the solenoid valve alone, just the compressor with the solenoid together, we have to import the solenoid which take an age especially getting it through Border Force control, it’s do-able though.

    It’s brilliant to speak to a likeminded passionate tech :)
     
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