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Short Trip Myth

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by Dan Cathy, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    A regular Prius would get 46 MPG or less if I do 2-4 miles short trips. Since PiP allowed me to avoid them, I am getting 55 MPG.

    You pretty much got the idea. It greatly depends on your charging pattern, commute distance, driving pattern, and how you utilize it.

    Even if the break even is later down the line, EV experience for extended period is worth it for me. It is a feature that can pay for itself while allowing more regen and higher speed engine off operation.

    PiP will continue to have larger battery in 10 years and hold higher resale premium as well. Put that "value add" and "value retain" into your comparison.
     
  2. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    I'm not a short trip driver, if I were, I wouldn't even buy a standard Prius. I would just get a regular gas car that cost $18k. There are more selections with gas cars and they are $6k to $7 cheaper than your PiP. If you just go by MPG alone, the gas car will look bad. But if you calculate total annual gas usage, it's not that much more. It's better for me to pay for the gas than pay $6k to $7k upfront.

    You can't assume that your PiP will hold it's value. Your battery will degrade and I wouldn't want to buy your PiP in 10 years unless I could get it really cheap. Also, as newer PiP arrive in the market, your old PiP will look less and less attractive. PiP is just a mass produced car with a Japanese logo on it. It's not a collectable car. It has very little future value.

    PS: I have a lot of EV experience in my life. They are called bumper cars and trolleys that run on electricity. It's no big deal for me.
     
  3. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    If I don't have the weekend and holiday long drives, I would get an EV. Leaf, Fit EV, Spark EV (though smaller), etc. PiP is our only family car since my wife takes public transportation so it has to handle all types and length of trips. An EV would force us to get a second car or a lot renting hassle.

    I will never go back to gas only car that idles and emit so much emission. Efficiency and emission per mile is just as important.

    I drive 11k miles a year including those short trips. I put about half if those on electricity and the other half on 55 MPG gas engine. Plugin premium is well worth it for me.
     
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  4. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    PiP sounded like a good idea until I applied the constraints which is one charge per day for me. Again, you focused on MPG and the miles you put on which has nothing to do with ROI in terms of $$$. For my situation, a standard Prius is the best choice since I can't charge more than once a day. I also don't do short trips.

    When comes to PiP, the decision whether to buy or not to buy is based on how many times you could charge per day. It isn't about the MPG and the numbers of miles you put on per year. PiP is not really a car. It is an expensive option you're buying for a Prius. If I could charge twice a day, I definitely would have gotten it. I'd get my money back in 4 1/2 years.
     
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I never said PiP is better for you. It seems a regular Prius is better for you. It is pretty simple.

    PiP is a better car for me. I only insure and maintain a single vehicle that has the advantages of both EV and HV.

    To sum up the topic, there is such thing as short trip penalty. PiP was designed to avoid them with 12 EV miles. EV in city and HV on the highway works well for me.
     
  6. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    How many miles you drive a day. if you drove 20 miles or more a day, the first 5 miles on ICE is your short trip penalty. The only way you could avoid the short trip penalty is never use the ICE
     
  7. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    This isn't as significant in the PiP. The larger buffer allows the engine to be used minimally during warm-up. Since efficiency deoends on load, the software savoids inefficie t load by starting the engine ahead of time and allowing it to run at peak efficiency for current state. The liftback actually does the same kind of thing during warm-up, with it avoiding engine use if you have spare charge in the buffer, particularly in S1. But the liftback has a small buffer so it generally can't do much to avoid it.
     
  8. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    Toyota also charge $5000 more for the PiP before tax credit. Funny how people don't mention that and often PiP owners don't even talk about the cost of charging. All they do is brag about how many miles they went before filling up gas. To make the PiP worthwhile, a person must be able to charge more than once a day.

    Seriously, if someone who is not qualify for tax credit, you think PiP could sell? Even with tax credit, it isn't selling as well as the standard Prius. Do you really think that little efficiency you mentioned is going to save me enough gas to pay $5k more?
     
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I drive 2 to 4 miles in the weekdays. 50 to 100 miles for the weekend day. Much longer on holidays.

    You got it, PiP avoid short trip penalty by not using ICE at all.

    Dude, everybody know all cold-start trips include warm up penalty. The reason short trip has more penalty is because the trip ends before reaching the optimal operating temp.

    Avoiding ICE usage for short frequent trips eliminate warm up penalty. Long trips only minimize it. Another value add from PiP which you can see from my real world results.
     
  10. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Um, no. You are prius_in_pa. We don't expect you to stop abusing the boards and spreading false information. Just wanted to update those who didn't know about your scams.
     
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  11. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    Sorry, you did say 2 to 4 miles a day. I forgot. I went out this morning to get milk. 2.6 miles round trip to the store and got 47mpg.
     
  12. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Yup, I also said I got 46 MPG when I did the 2 miles trip before I could plug it in my garage. That was in Oct weather so it will get lower in the winter. But I am getting 55 MPG because EV miles eliminated short trips. See the magic?

    For 9+ months I had PiP (winter including), I have averaged about 94 MPG. It is electricity boosted so we should subtract all EV miles. If I do that, I get 55 MPG for only the gas miles.
     
  13. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    Based on my calculations. Just on weekdays, you are saving $75/year comparing to a Prius. That is driving 4 miles a day on EV. I think my original calculation is correct. If someone is just looking to spend less, he/she is better off just buying a compact gas car if 4 miles is the daily commute on weekdays.
     
  14. Dan Cathy

    Dan Cathy Junior Member

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    True, but I never use tax credit to justify a purchase of anything. I would buy a house even without mortgage deduction. I don't use tax credit to justify whether I should have kids. But from the postings that I read, many PiP owners use tax credit to justify the purchase. Do you really think that people will pay $5k more for the PiP over a standard Prius? Some will, I know that but not many.

    Really? If I recall, you're the one who started the conversation. So end it by stop typing
     
  15. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    You are in violation of multiple items of the Terms of Service of this site (Terms of Service and Rules | PriusChat.) The moderators/administers here have been very tolerant of your antics. But you will probably press your luck further, anyway.
     
  16. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Use a bigger sample size. For 11,000 miles a year, say a regular Prius may get 48 MPG in my commute. It will use 229.2 gallons or $917 at $4 per gallon here.

    PiP would use 100 gallons (5,500 miles at 55 MPG). So gas will cost me $400.

    My PiP is averaging 132 MPGe on electric miles so it will use 1,404 kWh. The price of electricity is high 0.25/kWh) here but very clean. NY and CA are the the top cleanest states. Even with that price, electricity would cost me $351.

    I will save $166 per year so in 10 years, $1,660. I will not break even but I get to enjoy EV experience and other plugin perks. I got PiP for $25k, about $2k more than a regular Prius. If your electricity cost is at or below national average (12 cents), you can save a lot more and even make profit.

    One of the reasons I bought PiP is to reduce emission. Per EPA, PiP would emit 210 gram of CO2 per mile. It is down from 222 g/mi of a regular Prius. There is no other plugin hybrid that reduces emission over a regular Prius in NY.

    The other reason is to cut gasoline usage. PiP has further cut mine by half. That alone justify the cost of importing gas.
     
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  17. PLSPUSH

    PLSPUSH Active Member

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    what do you mean "you people"?

    11111111111
     
  18. kgall

    kgall Active Member

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    I disagree with you here.
    The short trip problem has haunted fuel economy efforts at least since the seventies. IIRC, even back then, public service announcements told us to combine several short trips if we could--though they didn't explain that the reason had to do with the car engine not cooling down. [BTW, since they didn't explain that, I thought they were stupid--I thought they were just saying that you shouldn't go there and back and there and back and there and back when you could cut out some of the "backs"--no one needed to be told that. Now I'm just annoyed that they didn't tell us what they really meant.]
    I agree with you that the goal is to use the least amount of fuel overall, and I don't feel bad about low mpg on short trips. (I feel worse about living in the country and driving quite a distance to my job in the city, even at better MPG.] But the short trip issue is an interesting problem in both engineering and social behavior.
     
  19. macman408

    macman408 Electron Guidance Counselor

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    It's exactly the same as opening your fridge to cool down the house. You start by violating the laws of thermodynamics. Once you have that part down, the rest is pretty easy. The best way to do this is related to learning how to fly from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; you try to obey the laws of thermodynamics, and fail.
     
  20. ursle

    ursle Gas miser

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    Not that it matters but this troll had had his line cut and is now a bottom dweller;)