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Short Tripping or "mini-tank" mileage

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by DaveinOlyWA, Sep 26, 2009.

  1. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    a lot has been discussed over the merits of the "average speed" verses MPG over various time periods. it has become pretty clear to me that the average speed over an entire tank of gas simply covers so much time as to be really useless. so i decided to track mileage over a well used route (work commute) to see how well the Pri handles short trips.

    background: trip about 7 miles on way. relatively flat. some hills and valleys but start and end point elevations not a lot of difference. 11 traffic lights, 2 stop signs going, 3 coming. 58% 40 mph, 33 % 35 mph, 9 % 25 mph. Trip B reset for each leg.



    morning commute; 5.30 AM very little traffic, lights on. cold but heat not used at this point.

    afternoon commute; 4.30 PM. heavy traffic with high possibilty of stop and crawl traffic. daylight (will be dark after time change and will repost additional data for winter)

    data points

    miles; MPG; average speed; OAT; Delta SOC

    edits; added stats after grill blocking. this is last set of numbers using summer formula gas

    EDIT : winter is here. an obviouse drop in mileage seen. some symbols on lines for additional notes concerning conditions

    *= wet roads or light rain
    **= heavy rain and/or standing water on roads
    D = extended defrost or ice scraping usually in morning only this early in the year

    morning

    7.1; 56.1; 32; 61; 0
    6.9; 54.2; 29; 62; +1
    7.0; 53.5; 30; 66; +2
    7.1; 57.1; 31; 65; 0
    6.9; 53.9; 29; 57; +1
    6.9; 55.3; 32; 57; 0
    6.9; 50.1; 32; 46; +4
    7.2; 56.3; 30; 44; 0
    7.1; 52.2; 28; 45; +3
    7.1; 54.3; 27; 45; 0
    7.0; 53.3; 31; 51; +2

    7.3; 55.1; 26; 43; 0
    7.1; 51.3; 28; 45; +1
    7.1; 58.8; 31; 50; +1
    6.9; 52.3; 33; 39; 0
    6.9; 48.8; 028; 36; 0 ** windows iced up, had to run defrost a few before driving
    7.1; 54.3; 26; 42; 0
    7.1; 51.9; 26; 42; 0
    7.1; 48.2; 28; 32; +1
    6.9; 51.3; 26; 43; +1


    7.1; 53.8; 28; 51; +1
    6.9 ; 55.9; 31; 52; +2
    7.1 ; 54.6; 28; 54; 0
    7.1; 51.9; 27; 54; 0 ...**
    6.9; 53.2; 29; 50; 0 ....*
    6.9; 49.6; 29; 36; 0 ...D
    6.9; 54.6; 30; 54; 0
    6.9; 49.4; 27; 36; 0 ...D
    7.0; 53.5; 28; 57; 0 ...*

    Afternoon;

    6.9; 65.1; 21; 69; 0
    6.9; 68.1; 23; 72; -2
    6.9; 72.1; 20; 75; -2
    7.0; 63.7; 27; 70; 0
    7.0; 64.1; 26; 69; 0
    6.9; 63.2; 25; 70; 0
    7.0; 63.2; 20; 64; 0
    6.9; 64.0; 28; 66; -1
    6.9; 63.1; 23; 74; 0
    7.6; 71.0; 23; 82; -2
    7.0; 62.7; 23; 76; 0

    7.0; 59.6; 23; 59; 0
    7.0; 63.4; 25; 63; 0
    7.0; 60.7; 25; 61; 0 ** opposite direction**
    7.0; 61.1; 24; 63; 0
    7.0; 64.9; 27; 66; -1
    7.0; 60.6; 18; 66; 0
    7.2; 62.7; 25; 57; -1


    7.0; 56.2; 23; 60; 0
    7.0; 60.0; 27; 60; -2
    6.9; 57.3; 19; 57; 0
    7.0; 55.8; 16; 57; -1
    7.0; 59.5; 20; 60; 0
    7.0; 56.1; 26; 56; 0
    7.2; 54.7; 15; 50; -1

    ok. so there it is... kinda started this late so the dont yet have the temperature range i was hoping for, but then again, it doesn't really seem to matter.

    what does matter is the SOC. there is a major penalty for short trips when SOC is below 6. because of road construction (which is happening on that short north-south jaunt on Yelm Hwy) i frequently have to detour which lengthens the percentage of the 25 mph commute. this basically runs my SOC down. i actually discarded some of those because they were way out of the data range. some detours took me to nearly 8½ miles and involved sitting on the road while construction equipment cleared up to 15 minutes at a time.

    will continue this latter to see what effect temps have in winter with and without grill blocking

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...81,-122.901993&spn=0.013847,0.027595&t=p&z=15

    **edit** fricking Google!! ok. i guess we try something else for maps
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I take a screen snapshot of the Google Map and then load it into PowerPoint. Using PowerPoint, I then add the lines and other indicators to show exactly my route:
    [​IMG]

    Just a suggestion.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Actually you have given me an idea when I start the Oct 1 to Dec 31, 2009 mileage collection and recording. I was planning on just tank records but the mini-records are exactly what is needed for an accurate "mph vs MPG" set of charts. So I'll make sure the workbook has two data entry spreadsheets and graphs that reflect the different sources.

    Thanks!
    Bob Wilson
     
  5. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well this chart was a restart because of the large discrepancies in mileage. i even did a couple reverse trips where i drove to work on my day off in the afternoon to see if direction made a difference (it didnt) and it took me a bit to realize how much of an impact SOC had on the short trips.

    but then i noticed the difference in SOC which was aggravated by the construction. because of it, i was detouring either on 54 th ave coming into my development which basically meant over a mile at 25 mph which meant a pretty low SOC at end of trip but high mileage which i lose the next day. the other detour option was turning at college/rainer to ballustrade then a cut over which used EV since balustrade is all 25 mph as well.

    a couple of times when bombing around town on errands, i did a reset to see what short trip mileage is with no warmup. seens like i am settling around 80 mpg...not bad
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    You and a couple of others had mentioned the same thing and I really noticed it this morning. Last night, my wife and I made a midnight trip to the grocery store driving through the neighborhood. This ran the traction battery pretty low but I didn't notice it until this morning.

    I drove up to a regular intersection and instead of shutting down, the engine kept running. Then I noticed my traction battery SOC was down to two bars and it made sense. Once I got on the Parkway, 50 mph, it took about 6-7 miles before the traction battery SOC was back to normal. Thereafter, mileage was normal.

    What this suggests is a 'mini-plugin' system might be 'low hanging fruit.' Day dreaming, this is what I'm thinking:

    • smart curb - with 'whisker' wires that contact underbody bus bars to transfer power at 48 VDC. At 48 V., there is little risk of electrocuting small critters or clumsy people. The smart curb would test before application of power.
    • in-vehicle tickle charger - using the temperature and voltage, a smart charger, NiMH aware, would bring the traction battery SOC to a reasonably high level, say 78%, enough that the traction battery ECU won't throw a code but plenty of energy to handle warm-up driving.
    • block and transaxle warmer - at say 6:00 AM or upon hitting a switch, start block heating for the ICE and transaxle. For good measure, see if inductive heating can be used on the steel belted tires to bring the tread temperature up say +5C. Actually, I'd like it to have a smart 'warm-up' based upon past driving practices as well as a wireless "leaving soon, git 'er ready."
    I need to implement the prototype on my NHW11 and if it works, use the lessons learned for the ZVW30.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    LOL!! oh man, WOW really have time on our hands.

    ya, if you look, the 50 mpg trip was the next morning after the 70 mpg trip. i did the detour thru Balustrade. my SOC parked and the next morning was 2 bars. with that short of a trip, it took something like 5-7 minutes to get into good mileage when normally it takes 2-4 minutes. doesnt sound like much, but on a trip that is only around 13-14 minutes in length, it makes a big difference.
     
  8. Indyking

    Indyking Happy Hyundai owner...

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    I have exactly the opposite opinion. Short trip MPGs are really cool for things like personal satisfaction, short experiments, or even to play around with the Prius HSD in different situations, but for real measurement of FE to inform prospective buyers or current interested owners, it is pretty much hopeless. Lifetime or at least "whole tank" MPG is a lot more useful for that purpose.

    I fill up my tank in a gas station that is 6 miles away from my house, and the way home from that gas station is a slight downhill. In that stretch I get 80+ MPG all the time (have got 90+ a couple of times) but what's the point of doing that? Does that reflect what the Prius FE is? NO, not even close!
     
  9. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    for a real understanding of what affects your mileage, it might be hard to evaluate a tank the consists of several dozen trips of varying lengths, traffic densities and weather conditions stretching over several days or weeks.

    any error you make will be magnified. i do not advocate not keeping LT stats. in fact, i greatly encourage it and post mine in my signature in order to encourage others to do so.

    also, when it gets right down to it, its simply more knowledge. now gathering knowledge does require work and a question of evaluating the worth of the data verses the time it took to gather it is a question i am not going to address
     
  10. Indyking

    Indyking Happy Hyundai owner...

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    ... because it is very personal. Myself, for instance, don't think it worth it. Others may think differently....
     
  11. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well, it might not be. but i only spend less than a minute a day gathering the data. less than a minute archiving the data. what the heck, i have 3 80 GB hard drives plus a 500 GB external. one drive is about 70% full, the others less than half... might as well do something with them

    but the real point is, i cannot determine the worth of the data before i gather it. its only after i have collected it, examined it, posted it here for others to see, will i be able to determine if its worth anything.

    as far as value, i enjoy it. i have other things that occupy my time that provide me enjoyment at a much higher cost. i have my RC Car habit which i put about $1000 a year into it and still cant win a race!!
     
  12. Indyking

    Indyking Happy Hyundai owner...

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    If a hobby made sense financially, it wouldn’t call hobby...
     
  13. FireEngineer

    FireEngineer Active Member

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    Dave, are you really seeing worse MPG from low SOC? With my commute and P&G, I usually am running on 3 bars. In the Gen II that would have meant worse MPG, but in the Gen III It doesn't seem to matter. I've done 90+ MPG commutes with only 3 bars the entire time.

    Wayne
     
  14. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well, i think you if the trip is short enough. overall, on a tank, you would see nothing. but on my short trip records, i was seeing wild swings in mileage and always had to do with gaining or losing battery bars. one the one tank i had, it was 71 mpg, granted a bit longer due to construction detour, but also lost a few battery bars. iow, more power from battery to get the high mileage.

    the next morning, i take off with only 2 bars, get to work with 6 bars, but mpg is 5 mpg below normal so have to assume that 5 mpg drop was caused from adding 4 battery bars.

    i actually have a much greater sample but because of construction delays, i tossed out a few because their numbers were way off the norm....but basically, i was doing 54-56 in the morning, 63-64 in the afternoon.

    now, the weather has changed. afternoon temps 10-15 º cooler. also started grill block, so will be posting another set of numbers in a few weeks for comparison
     
  15. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Use RFID located in the vehicle to validate that the wires should be energized, then you could also up the voltage.

    LOL. I'm not sure how a tickle charger works, would the whisker wires just wiggle back and forth? <g>

    It is hard to see how this would actuall have a net benefit. For example, assume that most of the warmup penalty is based on getting only 25 mpg for the first ~5 minutes and that you go 30 mph for that entire time (I know for me it is about 2 miles for the 5 min warmup vs 2.5 miles if you went 30 mph).

    Anyway, 2 miles at about 1/2 normal mpg (losing 1 mile)...
    or ~0.02 lost gallons due to warmup....
    or $0.06 (at $3/gal gas)...
    or ~ 600 watt-hours of electricity (at $0.10/kw-hr)
    Can you really warmup a Prius to the same level as driving 2 miles with just 600 w-hrs -- I don't know.

    But assuming 200 watt-hrs/mile you could have gone 3 miles in EV mode if you just put that same dollar value of energy into the battery (assuming the battery capacity allowed it). Clearly this wins by 3x. (maybe 2.5x if you need more than 200 w-hrs/mile)

    3PriusMike
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I found the block heater most useful in colder weather, <40F / 5C, for my 10 mile / 16 km commute. But with a 'smart' curb, essentially a docking station for the Prius, it would be easier to deal with this year round. But I'm serious about using 48 VDC even though there is energy loss in the down converter versus internal conversions. It is a question of safety.

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    well Bob, you add a weight sensor that does not supply power until a certain value, low enough to overcome calibration issues, but high enough that only the severely obese would be in danger (lol...sorry, but had to add that in there... these could double as shock stations for heart attack patients...oh nm...skip that last comment)

    but seriously, considering the parking abilities of many people, this sensor would have to be smart in many ways, so accidental shock i think could be worked out well enough
     
  18. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    **edit to OP**

    posting another set of numbers. the additions will be in a diff color and posting these because they are during colder weather but since its on a tank that was filled Sept 15th, it was still on summer formula gas. this was also start of grill block at 100% top and bottom. (probably going to 75% top block due to concerns over inverter temps)

    i just got gas yesterday which is first winter tank formula.
     
  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    added to OP...

    this winter formula gas, mileage definitely lower
    color in red