Should freed Guantanamo detainees be compensated?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 01:12 PM) [snapback]256329[/snapback]</div>

Show me where the Patriot Act cancels Habeus Corpus rights... Also waiting for my other question to be answered by you on torture. You obviously believe, as the rest of your side does, that if you say something often enough it must be true. Try ascertaining the facts before spreading lies. I think citizens who appreciate civil rights also are compelled not to lie about laws the government enacts in order to protect said citizens????? or I guess its ok for liberals to lie as long as it serves them well. But not my type of citizen in my country who appreciates the rights that were fought for and for which hundreds of thousands of Americans died to protect over two centuries. I wonder how the liberals felt during the 1930's - did they ever blame themselves for the bloodshed that could have been prevented if we PREEMPTED Hitler before or even after he invaded in 1939 - guess they did not - might I call you Chamberlein II my friend since you just want to give in and give up. How will you feel when Manhattan is hit again and we bury another 3,000 or 30,000 Americans - knowing you did not allow or want to allow our government to put the dots together - to be proactive - to attack before they attack again --- no just bury the WTC II dead and let them hit us again, and again - kind of like Clinton. I keep getting waves of nasea responding to mental diarrhea here - I am only encouraged knowing that your ilk will get the vote our for us - and for that I am thankful.

Name a government you trust today since it is obviously not the American government.

And the ultimate role citizens play is knowing when some of their civil rights must be put on hold to defend their way of life - examples can be found during the Civil War and WWII - it is easy to cry about about civil rights it is harder to appreciate that there are times (although you could not name ONE CIVIL RIGHT you have lost or law suit claiming such since 9/11/2001) they have to be placed on a back burner in order to have them in the future. That is a real citizen who know, understands, and appreciates that. Your "citizen" is regarded as a parasite/taker/easy way out type of citizen who cant see further than their own elbow.

So, my friend, is torture ever ok?? I answered your question, now answer mine - or is this also a one way street with you?? Take Take Take , Obfuscate.......

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]256249[/snapback]</div>

Not only no but HELL NO

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 01:12 PM) [snapback]256329[/snapback]</div>

Ok, I'll try and be constructive...

Ok, first off, this is a fair and reasonable statement. No argument there.

Run of the mill, non-terrorist types, do get treated with civility (yes, I understand this is also an arguable point, and I'm sure daniel would snicker... lol), for the most part anyway. Even those who commit the most henious crimes have fundamental human and civil rights apply to them within the U.S.. However, these are only people that, at most (excluding the serial killer types), kill one or two people. Even if you factor in the most egregious serial killers, you get maybe 40-50 murders...

Now what do you do when someone has the potential to kill en masse? What if we had somehow picked up Atta a week before 9/11? Would you allow for his torture if it had the potential to thwart 9/11? Just another variation of dbmanmd's question, for which I think is totally valid.

I'll be blunt, one system can't blanket every situation. No judicial system is perfect until the mind reading machine comes out. If there's a reasonable risk to national security, or another 9/11, something of that magnitude, I can't say I have a problem with not applying basic human rights/civility to various individuals, and detaining them until it's reasonably determined they are not a risk. OR, now that we've been through this, set up and administer an appropriate system for this new type of risk environment, that makes people like you happy, if that is in fact possible...

 

I dont mean to pile on, but... since you are not answering my question about torture or for that matter any other I have brought forth.

You speak of citizens and their need to know their rights. The citizens in my country (USA) understand that their rights and liberties are there only because prior generations of citizens made SACRIFICES to protect them including at times GIVING UP their civil liberties only to have them REINSTATED once the threat was abolished. In your country (Wherever, World) your citizens only take and never sacrifice - the probability of your country surviving as an independant entity even 3 generations is nill.

You should look at history and understand WHY AMERICA has survived and FLOURISHED over the past QUARTER MILLENIUM - it was not because its citizens took and took and cried and cried - it is because they gave and they sacrificed and they understood the risks we faced and still face that THREATEN our way of life and the need to do the only thing we are asked to do as AMERICANS - to continue this way of life to the next generation - is that perhaps the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS - being able to give to your children and the next generation this way of life. Would you die for this country?

Look at your posts below and ask yourself honestly if you are pro-America - you may think you are but obviously to an unbiased (not NY TIMES or AP) reporter the facts speak for themselves.

Does Canada return draft dodgers?
Paying damages to trumped up charges to mr drill amwar?

Name one of your postings that could be in the slightest way be viewed as Pro-America.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]256383[/snapback]</div>

Just in search of the facts and your position on torture.

Please do not take this personally - it is not directed at you - believe it or not. It is tough for me to drive past houses and see relatives of people who were murdered on 9/11 and continually hear the press and others espouse anti-America this and that and how we are bad and evil and how we torture innocent people and we abolished the Bill of Rights, etc, etc, etc.

I am proud of this country, I see the enemy and unfortunately I see that the enemy in part is ourselves and others who prosper and exist because of our system of governance and the sacrifices millions of Americans have made to ensure its survival.

For if this bright light on the hill is extinguished where do the persecuted go? Where would my family have gone when europe became dark and evil, when europe itself started to die?

 

Many of the detainees held at Guantanamo have no connection with terrorism whatsoever. Seton Hall Law School did a study and they could only find that 8% of the detainees had connections to al Qaeda. Most of them are noncombatants. Many were not even captured by US forces, but were turned over by Afghan warlords and Pakistanis in exchange for reward.
I would hope that even the advocates of torture here would agree that it is wrong to torture innocent people?
Regarding the question posed by the OP, our system of justice recognizes that it is imperfect and it is our practice to compensate people who have been wrongly imprisoned. I would think that it is only equitable to give the same consideration to wrongly detained foreign nationals.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 16 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]256405[/snapback]</div>

I guess Seton Hall had access to secret NSA/CIA information too... Hmm, maybe THEY should have been in charge of who to round up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]256404[/snapback]</div>

Actually, the reverse is currently true.... :lol: Sorry to burst your bubble, but your type has become mainstream and "in" these days...




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 03:09 PM) [snapback]256411[/snapback]</div>

jared, no offense, but this is were you go off into the deep end...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]256404[/snapback]</div>

Another large dose of mental Valium/Xanax.

If this is what you truly believe so be it - if you can live with it.

Sidebar - Its actually OK to wave a flag and support the troops and the mission even if you dont fully support it. There are young people making SACRIFICES that you can applaud them for even if you do not agree with them. And it is more difficult to sacrifice than just run the motor.

So, is it ever ok to torture someone????????????????????

And liberals are weak - they are the ones who always blame America, predict our defeat or even wish for it, who want to run, who never want to sacrifice. What they love is only themselves and their lives as provided for by the sacrifices of others.

Would you ever in any circumstance die for this country????

I have been politely asking you to answer these questions forever here.... Stand up and show us why we misunderstand liberals. Tell us that you would torture a "human being" to prevent the deaths of 1,000,000 Americans because he held a secret as to the location of a nuclear weapon - tell us that you would die for this country if it were invaded by hostile forces bent on destroying us --- we are waiting to see why liberals are not weak....................................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 16 2006, 03:06 PM) [snapback]256406[/snapback]</div>

I still wonder how they live with themselves having to cite such sources as evidence for American based evil and wrongdoing. The best is when the cite the UN or "un-named sources" - Amnesty International is another good one. International Red Crescent is up there too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 16 2006, 03:16 PM) [snapback]256416[/snapback]</div>

or .org sites on nuclear proliferation... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 16 2006, 02:39 PM) [snapback]256382[/snapback]</div>

I guess you don't remember Tim McVeigh. We might have such wackos in our goverment even now.

I don't care about your assertion of supposed risk environment, it's just another tool for the complacent to receive more slack in doing a shitty job.

Yeah I got it, we have to live in fear ! :huh:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 16 2006, 03:16 PM) [snapback]256416[/snapback]</div>

You know, you have to figure that if you hang out in online forums, you are just going to have to read so much horsesh*t, and you just ignore it. But you are just so full of it.

I served my country as a naval officer, and when I saw pictures of American military personnel torturing and degrading prisoners, it sickened me. That was an insult to me and every person who ever wore the uniform of this nation's military. That is NOT what America stands for. And no, dbermanmd- it is NOT acceptable to torture anyone. First of all, by making torture a standard operating procedure we have exposed our own troops to the risk of it in the event of their capture. Second, as anyone- psychologists, intelligence experts, whomever- who has studied this field can tell, torture does lot lead to credible testimony. Third, and most importantly, it is WRONG.

A friend of mine, a very decent man, who is a captain in the Navy, was sent to Guantanamo to oversee the detention facilities that the Navy has command over (about half of them). His mission was to ensure that detainees were treated humanely. He ensured that the military personnel under his commend were properly trained, that detainees were treated properly, that they all had access to Korans, interpreters, etc. So there are people in the military who recognize that there is a serious problem there, and attempting to rectify the situation. I wonder if you would call my friend "weak" for making the comfort of foreign detainees a priority?

People like you engage in mindless nationalism, waving the flag and saying "America right or wrong." If one of my children hurt someone else's child, I would not just say, "my child, right or wrong", and ignore the transgression. And when my country does something wrong, I don't just wave the flag an pretend that everything is OK. Your mindless rants are becoming tiresome.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 16 2006, 03:28 PM) [snapback]256426[/snapback]</div>

Countries being abstractions - cool - you obviously dont believe in the UN - which is a view we then share. And you dont carry a passport. And you dont pay taxes either. And you dont have an American Bill of Rights - you have a "Human" bill of rights as given by not a creator but by other man. Cool. I knew people who believe like you back in the 60's and 70's - of course they were smoking something at the time

Utilitarian Democratic Socialist - Wow, what the heck is that - found only in America I am sure. Is that another way to say Communist or Socialist or Anti-Capitalist or Anarchist or Aethiest or Anti-Americanist.

Question - would you have fought during WWII in Japan or Germany where the threat was real but is was in a distant land??? Very Very interested in your response to this question if I could have you answer one more question. Pretty Please. Really interested in your response to this one. It would give clarity to me and your positions. Thank you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 16 2006, 03:06 PM) [snapback]256406[/snapback]</div>

Incompetence resides even among NSA/CIA, simply because info comes from some bunker it doesn't mean it's accurate. :blink: