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Should I sell?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by gboss, May 5, 2022.

  1. gboss

    gboss Member

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    So here is the situation - I picked up my Prius (2013 level 5 trim) ~8 months ago to travel the country, which I have done across several trips. The Sprinter vanlife didn't appeal to me or my budget and doing 17mpg around the country in a Tacoma also wasn't that appealing so I bought a used Prius in my price range. The only trip left that I want to do is from CA to Alaska, which I may end up doing next month depending on my work schedule. The car is at 85k miles, immaculate inside and out, and there are no mechanical issues whatsoever (got super lucky buying used). Battery life is ok too according to Dr. Prius. The only cosmetic issue is a small crack in the bumper where the previous driver must have gone over a curb, but it is very minor and looks/drives brand new other than that.

    As a previous car/motorcycle guy, I still have some issues with the Prius's lack of driving personality / macho image....but I have really fallen for this darn thing through my travels. I also really like the look of the gen 3 and am inspired by a few of the off-road overland builds that I see on the forum. Owning this car has been the difference between me going on epic long-distance trips and not doing them at all. I have already received tremendous life value out of owning it so far. I feel like I have unlocked another universe traveling/sleeping with the unbridled autonomy that comes with Prius overlanding. Highway driving experience is great in the L5 trim, I have an inverter wired into the 12V battery with an extension cord to run computers and cooking equipment outside, and in the rare event that I need climate control while camping...its there! This horse is an incredible travel camper and I couldn't be happier.

    My issue is that more than half of this forum advises against buying gen 3 due to the risk of head gasket failure around the 150k mile mark and I probably need to do the EGR circuit soon. I live in an apartment complex that doesn't allow us to work on cars in the garage (i.e. no space for wrench time and super annoying building management) so I will probably have to farm this job out ($$) unless I can do it in a day in a parking lot somewhere. Maybe it will be okay if I keep granny'ing it in Eco mode? Maybe not? The KBB value is also excellent right now.

    Do I keep this thing, roll the dice with EGR, and mod it to my needs....or sell it while the value is high and buy a newer model? I'm torn.
     
    #1 gboss, May 5, 2022
    Last edited: May 5, 2022
  2. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Car maintenance and repair is normal, gotta budget for it. Keep it
     
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  3. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I agree! You love that thing. Find a way to maintain it. EGR cleaning is rather expensive to farm out because it's a bit of a PITA, but it can be done in a day. I still wouldn't want to do it in a parking lot, though. Maybe a friend has a garage or car port you can use for a day or two.
     
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  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Sounds like a cream puff; I would find a way, to DIY the third gen "required maintenance". Tool list, tips, and video links in my signature (top link). @jerrymildred 's last sentence sounds like a very good idea. If no friends with vacant garages, maybe even a craig's list feeler would get you something.

    Our 2010 CDN Touring looks exactly like yours btw (apart from the mid-gen cosmetic changes).
     
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  5. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Ditto above. Every car needs maintenance. You may or may not have to replace the head gasket at 150k miles. I didn't have to on mine. You may or may not have to change the transmission on your next car. Who knows? What you do know now is gas prices are high. You don't know if they will stay that way. You can make a guess if you like.

    Just like the head gasket, I don't make a guess. I don't make a guess on gas prices. I don't make a guess on the EGR valve or head gasket. I prepare for the possibility by saving for the repair/maintenance from spending less driving a Prius versus a Tacoma while fuel prices are high.
     
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  6. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

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    I'll be the partial contrarian on EGR. I believe that damage from EGR clogging is highly unlikely before 120k when spark plug change is due. The cowl with the windshield wipers has to be taken off then, so, if you are paying someone else to do it, the extra cost to get at the EGR cooler and head passages is not that much as doing separately. Doing it at 85k just means that you would have to do it sooner the next time.

    Here is a video of a Toyota mechanic taking a somewhat different approach to this issue than is often recommended here:

     
    #6 royrose, May 5, 2022
    Last edited: May 5, 2022
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    He makes a statement at 2:10, that EGR is (paraphrasing slightly) "purely for emissions, doesn't effect anything else". I've heard contrary, that the engine is relying on functional EGR, to keep combustion chamber temps stable. First paragraph here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation
     
    #7 Mendel Leisk, May 5, 2022
    Last edited: May 5, 2022
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  8. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

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    I don't agree with that statement that he made. Also, he doesn't want to mess with cleaning the head passages, while someone doing it themselves can take the time to do it. But I do think it is worth lowering the fear level about EGR and good to present a different approach.
     
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  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah, I was way ahead of the clogging, did a first cleaning very early. Nice thing too: after a "shake-down cruise", the next time 'round is a cakewalk. :)
     
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  10. Merkey

    Merkey Active Member

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    I have the same problem regarding lack of garage space and it would be hard to do in my parking lot.
    I am tempted to, at least, clean/replace the intake manifold that seems relatively easy to do.
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah the intake and EGR can be two separate days, to break it up. There is some minor overlap of the two jobs: you need to remove the EGR pipe to get the intake manifold off. And both jobs require removal of the engine air intake and air filter box.

    When doing the EGR itself, you can remove the lower EGR cooler nut any time, in advance, leave it off. This'll save you at least an hour, lol.

    I was going to say you need the front raised and engine bay shield off when doing the EGR, but now I'm not sure, think I accessed everything from above. Maybe have the capability and do it as required, say if you drop something...

    As far as "making a mess": you really don't need to spill any coolant; see first link in my signature for tactics.

    I would clean everything but the cooler with brake cleaner, rags and brushes. You want to do that outside, with a good sized drain pan to contain everything. The cooler I used oxi-clean solution soaks, in the house, propped up in the laundry sink. It's water based, no nasty odors, and with a little patience brought the cooler back to like-new condition.

    When the intake manifold's off you should clean the throttle body, with a carb cleaner. Leave it's coolant hoses attached; no need to disconnect. The MAP sensor (at bottom of intake manifold) you might want to spritz with MAF cleaner (very pure contact cleaner). CRC is one brand.
     
    #11 Mendel Leisk, May 5, 2022
    Last edited: May 5, 2022
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  12. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I generally like the car care nut, but in this case, I think there's a flaw in his logic.

    I'm wondering more and more if the EGR/HG relationship isn't that the wimpy Toyota HG isn't strong enough to withstand the increased negative pressure on the intake stroke without the flow from the EGR. Eventually, it fails at the weak point, which is the web between #1 cylinder (usually) and the water jacket. And one of his comments strengthened my confidence that this is the case. I'll explain.

    First, he claims that the shudder is from uneven gases coming into the combustion chamber due to uneven flow through the ports in the intake manifold. Very plausible. And, when he blocks the junction between the EGR valve and the EGR tube, the engine loses the shudder. In this case, I'd agree that uneven air flow is probably causing the shudder. But he warns to not leave it blocked or it'll damage the engine. You mean like a clogged EGR circuit? When any part of the EGR circuit is plugged, it's just like what he did with the putty knife.

    So, uneven EGR flow in the intake manifold might cause the shudder in the early stages. In that case, cleaning the entire EGR circuit ought to fix the problem and save the HG. But if you don't fix it, it will clog completely and you'll have the exact conditions that he warned about when he inserted that putty knife into the system.

    But, if that doesn't fix it, then it's time to look inside the combustion chambers to see if any piston tops have been steam cleaned.

    Further evidence that the system in the video wasn't all that bad was that he was able to just blow out the carbon without removing the cooler. But the question is whether he mostly blew out the carbon on his end and left the other end all carbonned up. I always blow them out from both ends because I have never gotten one clean all the way through by just blowing into one end. And most of them create very dense clouds of dark dark brown dust. And even after the compressed air from both ends, there's still quite a bit left in there on the best of them. Some are so caked that it takes repeated cycles of compressed air, rinsing in Purple Power, and pressure washing. If you don't completely clean the cooler, valve, pipe, and manifold, you're doing a lot of work for what might be a short lived improvement.
     
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  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I think I've proofread this enough. I started thinking about documenting an EGR cleaning workflow, not pedantically detailed, but enough info to be clear, and give someone an idea what they're in for:

    EGR cleaning workflow:

    1. Remove wipers, lower windshield trim, wiper motor/linkage, and underlying metal cowl. See NutzAboutBolts excellent video for details:



    2. Drain 2 quarts(or liters) from radiator drain spigot, into clean container (to be reused). This will drop the coolant level below the EGR system, allow disconnection of the EGR COOLER coolant hoses without spillage.

    3. Remove bottom nut from EGR COOLER bracket. This can be done first (or even days earlier) , and due to the difficulty in accessing/removing it, I'd recommend to leave it off; the cooler is quite secure without it.) If you want, back out the stud at that location too, and leave it off permanently as well.

    4. Remove engine air intake snorkel, and air filter box.

    5. Remove EGR PIPE. There are 2 bolts at each end, and an additional bolt holding a plastic cover piece at the intake manifold end that needs to be removed first.

    6. Disconnect electrical connector from EGR VALVE.

    7. Disconnect coolant hoses from EGR COOLER.

    8. Remove front/top nut from EGR VALVE, and associated stud.

    9. Remove (2) nuts from rear flange connection of EGR COOLER, and associated studs. Be careful to catch the gasket between EGR COOLER and exhaust manifold: it will be loose once the studs are removed. Note: if the stud removal described in step 3 has been done, removal of the rear studs may not be necessary.

    10. Remove top/centre retaining bolt from EGR COOLER. The EGR VALVE/COOLER assembly should now be loose, able to be lifted out. Be careful not to tip it too much in this process; there's a few oz's of trapped coolant in the lower back corner. Pour this into the previously drained coolant.

    11. Install is reverse of removal. Pour the drained coolant into the reservoir, with the coolant air bleed valve open, till coolant starts coming out (for model year 2010/2011). For later years the bleed valve has been deleted, but leaving a topmost coolant hose disconnected would likely serve the same purpose.

    Note: not absolutely necessary, but be prepared to raise the front and remove the engine bay undercover. It "may" help with removal of EGR COOLER rear studs/nuts, or may become necessary to recover something dropped.
     
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  14. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Used car prices have never been higher... So if you have an opportunity on a newer Prius from friend or family member at a great price that'd be a wise way to go. Adding an oil catch can could be done in a parking lot of auto parts store very quickly and if you're good about lots of maintenance maybe you'll get lucky on head gasket issue.
     
  15. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    I need to save your "workflow" sequence. Thanx!

    Isn't removing the undercover unavoidable to drain coolant, even partially? That silly thing is one reason I haven't yet worked up the courage to tackle the EGR heat exchanger in an apartment parking lot. I did do the intake manifold and EGR pipe last year. They were only lightly gunked, compared to some photos we've seen..
     
  16. Eddie25

    Eddie25 Active Member

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    I didn't drain my coolant when I did mine super recently. I didn't remove the throttle body hoses (just move the whole thing to the side), I pinched the lower two EGR hoses with cheap harbor freight pinchers (not even sure this was totally effective or necessary) and I put paper towels under the upper hoses which only seemed to leak a bit. Whenever possible I caught a little spillage with a small jar, but the paper towels are really the key. As far as I remember when I did this with a coolant drain I had a pretty comparable amount of mess.

    Also, removing the undercover is super easy.


    It's a seller's market though and the Gen 3 can be pretty daunting to own if you are not a DIYer.
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    No. There’s two openings in the undercover, in vicinity of radiator drain spigot. You can reach your hand through the further aft one, get a grip on the rad spigot and loosen, and it drains through the more foreword openings. Theoretically.

    In practice it’s an awkward angle and having the front of car at least raised a bit will make it easier to reach, and see. Push something like surgical rubber tube onto the spigot to avoid splashing is good.

    some have had trouble breaking loose the drain spigot; a pair of pliers loosely clamping the handle gives you leverage.
     
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  18. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Are you kidding???

    Keep it.
    Even if you have to farm out the maintenance it will be FAAAAAR cheaper than anything you can buy to replace it, and you already KNOW that you like the car.

    Easiest question I will answer in a looong time.
     
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  19. nicoj36

    nicoj36 Active Member

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    Look for garages that lets you work on your own cars. There are DIY auto garages in every major city.
     
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  20. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    Okay so maybe you're in the big state of California or somewhere in one of those big towns out west I don't know I live in North Carolina and I have a commercial account at advance Auto parts which is like Menards pep boys and O'Reilly's I can take any of my cars to any of those parking lots and leave them for two or three days while I'm working on them and the managers of any of those three stores in my area plus their security at night all know me from shopping there nothing special and they will happily allow me to leave my car in their parking lot whilst I'm working on it if I don't leave it with pieces missing hoods off doors off whatever so many things are possible in most areas of the country except where the police state has really taken over I guess EGR cleaning I could take the EGR cooler and the piping off in a few minutes run it down to a machine shop that's 5 minutes down the road from advance they'll tank and clean it for me overnight hand it back to me in the morning $45 lighter in the wallet probably and it'll be whistle clean or I can stand there with OxiClean and brushes and all kinds of other stuff and spend the day doing it either way it gets done the vehicle stays in decent shape and I'm doing it in a parking lot
     
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