Should Toyota acknowlege that the braking issue applies to the gen II Priuses?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Eoin, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. MJ2005

    MJ2005 Junior Member

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    There seem to be several threads on this board discussing the same topic. I'm copying my post from another thread here, because of all the comments here about how the brakes just "feel" different and it's not really a problem. In reality, while my brakes are busy "feeling" different, they are also busy simply not responding. Not sure how anyone can say this is not a real problem. Tell it to the car I hit, while my foot was pressed down as hard as it could go, with no response on the brake. Thank god it was not more serious.

    "Just adding my experience... about two years ago I had an accident with my 2005 Prius, going downhill at very slow speed (almost stopped) I went over a pothole, brakes didn't respond, and I went into the car that was stopped in front of me. After this happened I read up on others' similar experiences on this board, and switched to Nokian tires. The car has been much better since, but lately I'm getting the loss of stability light on my dashboard more often again. When it happens it feels like the car "cuts out". I wanted to sell the car after this happened, but have stuck with it. If this is being resolved for 2010 cars, I really wish Toyota would address it for older Priuses - this is NOT a new problem, as reading through all these pages proves!"
     
  2. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    When there is a pervasive safety deafness, sometimes the only thing you can do is to report the issue to NHTSA. Have you? If not, here is a link: Office of Defects Investigation (ODI), File A Safety Complaint
     
  3. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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  4. KLear

    KLear New Member

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    It would be interesting to see if there is accident data stored somewhere that can show how many Prius' have rear-ended vehicles since the 2004. This would be a piece of the evidence needed to make a decision about the G2 concern. While there has been articulation of G2 problems since 2004, there doesn't seem to be the overall outcry seen with the 2010. The article referenced in the last post makes it seem that Toyota recalibrated the ABS system in the G3 model, so the G3's brakes definitely have changed from the G2. It's hard for me to comment about the experience as I have had my car for only 3 weeks, and I have never drove a G3. Perhaps this is a problem with only some G2, as it seems that some drivers insist that the event happens, and others do not, or are not concerned by it.

     
  5. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    FINALLY. I guess better late than never... We've only been waiting 7 YEARS for a major news agency to report on this.

    I wonder how long it will take Toyota to own up to it.
     
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  6. steveoshaug

    steveoshaug New Member

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    I've had the sensation of loss of brakes on my 2008 exiting the highway at around 30 mph while slowing down approaching a stoplight and hitting a small bump. Also, had the experience 2 other times going at a much slower speed. I wonder is this anyhow different than the braking issue with the 2010 models and what those drivers are experiencing? In the PC FAQ section on the recall it states the ABS is different on the 2010. If so why the same braking issue/concerns? My question is what is the nuts and bolts answer to why the generation II is different than the generation III in regards to this issue.
     
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  7. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Whether the issue is one of feel or a physical difference depends on the driver's reaction. If the driver maintains a light pressure on the brake pedal, the stopping distance will indeed be increased. If the driver presses firmly the brakes continue to operate as expected. Here are the official FAQs from Toyota relating to this on the 2010 (Gen II does not have its own FAQs):

    FAQ's

    Q1: What is the condition?
    A1: Due to programming of the ABS (Anti Lock Braking System), there is a possibility that the braking force may be slightly degraded on completion of ABS activation.
    In situations where the brake pedal is lightly held and ABS is activated for a moment on icy or bumpy roads, the vehicle stopping distance may be longer.

    Q2: What is the cause of the condition?
    A2: The condition is caused by programming of the ABS Electronic Control Unit (ECU). Due to this programming, there is a possibility that the braking force at ABS activation may slightly degrade as compared to the braking force before the activation.

    Q3: Are there any warnings that this condition exist?
    A3: The driver may notice inconsistent brake feel during slow and steady application of brakes on icy or bumpy road surfaces when the anti-lock brake system (ABS) is activated.

    Q3a: Are there any steps a driver may take if they experience this condition?
    A3a: Each circumstance may vary, and drivers must use their best judgment, but until the remedy is completed on the vehicle Toyota advises drivers to depress the brake pedal using firm pressure.

    Tom
     
  8. Eoin

    Eoin Active Member

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    I have no interest in bashing Toyota. I do not work for GM or Ford. I own three Toyotas - a Tercel, a Camry and a Prius and they are excellent cars. I plan to buy a 2011 Prius. Having said all that, I still, for some reason, have respect for truth. I know this is quaint and old fashioned these days, but I can't help it. So when Toyota says there are braking issues with the 2010 model, but not with previous gen II models, and I have personally experienced the loss of brakes sensation on my 2005 Prius many times, a red light goes off somewhere and I say to myself "something is rotten in the state of Denmark". If Toyota does not respect the truth, how can they keep the respect of their customers? So many people have reported the loss of brakes on gen II Priuses that I submit that it is beyond any doubt that the brake issue applies to gen II cars as well as gen III. It is time for Toyota to admit this before they are forced to do it by some government agency.
     
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  9. journeydog

    journeydog Junior Member

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    Note that the other hybrid-makers (Ford, GM,etc.) are hanging back on recalls for their braking/acceleration problems. Good strategy - let Toyota fall on the "sword" first and do the expensive testing, face congressional hearings, "meet the press" daily, etc.

    "apriusfan" - right on!
    Folks should file the reports rather than trying to analyze the problem - I don't think Toyota decision-makers are reading the analyses herein. (I do understand the craving to discover the solution - I'm a retired E/geek.)
     
  10. Eoin

    Eoin Active Member

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    That "expensive testing" should have been done long before the cars were released to the public.
     
  11. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    We feel there is indeed some "bumpy road" brake issue on our Gen-II 2006 Prius. However, it has not been a serious concern or problem for us to date.
     
  12. PriusLewis

    PriusLewis Management Scientist

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    At least one reported to the NHTSA:

    Susan Yonish of Cornelius, N.C., said her 2008 Prius “had an actual crash due to the brakes not stopping the car in bumper-to-bumper traffic.â€

    Early Priuses may have braking issues - Autos- msnbc.com
     
  13. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    That's a report. Has it been confirmed to be brake failure? People make all sorts of claims when they have run into the back of another car. Cars lose braking action without having brake failures.

    Tom
     
  14. Eoin

    Eoin Active Member

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    Some comments from another blog:



    "It is simply unfathomable to me that an automaker of Toyota's reputation would:
    1) Install electronic systems in vehicles that control braking and acceleration without thorough testing.
    2) Brush off customer complaints of such problems without at least investigating
    3) Drag its heels and continue to be in denial even after acknowledging problems by insisting that the issue is limited to one year and one model, the 2010 Prius.
    Toyota's problems are greater than mechanical issues -- every carmaker has those; that's just a fact of automotive life. No, Toyota' real problem is the way the company has reacted to these issues -- trying to blow the problems off -- causes people to not trust Toyota any longer. When they tell people their cars are safe, and those people drive those cars and experience first hand the opposite of what they've been told, those people very quickly stop believing.
    For myself, I'll never buy another Toyota again...not necessarily because they're bad cars, but because I don't believe a word that comes out of the mouths of the people selling them to me"
     
  15. PrBuddy

    PrBuddy Member

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    Here's my take (= pure speculation) on it: The real difference between the Gen2 and Gen3 is the more capable regen system in Gen3. This makes the braking problem more pronounced, as the difference between regen braking and NO braking can be bigger. Based on the owner reports on this site I do not believe there is a big difference in the ABS behavior when the "sliding" is experienced.

    IMO the best strategy for Toyota would be to NOT recall the Gen2, but update the brakes for free for all owners that complain about the "sensation" to their dealer. Everyone happy?
     
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  16. Eoin

    Eoin Active Member

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    Throw in a $500 credit toward a new Prius and it's a deal.
     
  17. sleepawaycampr

    sleepawaycampr New Member

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    I had almost the EXACT same issue. Driving at no more than 15mph, there was someone in front of me slowing and I stepped on my breaks and slammed right into her. I had a fast enough reaction time to swerve to the left thank goodness because I ended up only messing up my bumper and right fender and not the engine on the left side. At the time I swore up and down that she slammed on her brakes in front of me, even still if I was slamming my foot to the ground, that should have slowed me down enough not to completely take off her bumper. Its interesting to know that other Gen II owners have had the same experience. I guess I need to file that complaint now.
     
  18. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    If you slammed on the brakes, then it's not this braking problem. The problem relating to the recall occurs only with light regenerative braking. Your situation would have been a panic stop, where only friction brakes are used. If you are going to file a complaint, make sure to clearly state that this is a different problem.

    Tom
     
  19. sleepawaycampr

    sleepawaycampr New Member

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    I have also felt the 'break failure' feeling when going over a pothole or bumpy road however, I also noticed that it seems to be a traction control issue as the traction light comes on. It sure as hell FEELS like I'm losing break control, I just dont know if it is really the issue.
     
  20. orracle

    orracle Whaddaya mean "senior" member?

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