1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Smart Pedal

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Accessories and Modifications' started by AzusaPrius, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,912
    635
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    What's a typical spread when testing your MPG at each fill up? It's got to be a decent variable.
    At least it is for me. Maybe ± 6%..... Maybe less....
     
  2. AzusaPrius

    AzusaPrius Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    2,069
    868
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    One thing it can do that you can not control is being stable when the road is not smooth.

    The weight of your foot will cause more pedal travel when the roads are bad.

    Causing more gas to be used for no reason versus using this device where it ignores small inputs of pedal movement when the road is not smooth.

    No matter what you say bill, you can not do what this device will do to save fuel.

    You can use eco mode and cruise control at higher speeds but what about around the city where you cant use cruise control?

    Guess you will have to let your foot off the pedal when you see roads that are bad.
     
  3. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,912
    635
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    But then your foot will also cause Less pedal travel the exact same amount when on this mythological 'bad road'.
    Shouldn't that be a wash?
    I can't visualize a road so rough that causes my right foot to move... but good theory....:whistle:
    What if the roads are smooth? What if it's always on CC when on the highway?

    I'm sure you are seeing fantastic results using this gizmonic with your prius.
    And you get a buckandahalf when chumps use your advertising link to purchase this 'amazing' device. (y)

    Say, if dampening the pedal's input to the ECU is so great,,,, why didn't toyota just add a few lines of code to do this?
    Some like to say that MPG was always the most important thing in the Prius engineering.
     
  4. AzusaPrius

    AzusaPrius Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    2,069
    868
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Even when a road seems to be good there is always a dip or wave somewhere.

    Not only is the weight of your foot causing unintentional pedal movement, the actual car is also moving up and down with its suspension and the pressure of your foot is what causes the extra pedal movement.

    Thank you for your thoughts.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,892
    16,202
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    That would be an empirical question ... you might have some personal opinion of whether your foot is moving the pedal, and an instrument comparing an accelerometer to the pedal position might reveal something different.

    I largely share your skeptical instinct, but it's possible to overdo it and forget to distinguish one case from another. This thread is not about some product that dampens pedal input like a few lines of code could do; it's about a product that contains an accelerometer of its own, so it can do more than some simpleminded "dampening". The patents were linked in #27.

    That still doesn't necessarily mean it's anything to write home about, but it's the sort of thing it could be interesting to see a fleet study of. The one long being anticipated in this thread seems to be out now (mentioned in post #56). I haven't had the time yet to read it myself, but from what's been quoted it sounds like the benefit was more modest than striking. The points from fuzzy1 about the small sample size were disappointing; I'd have expected those organizations to do something more rigorous.
     
    Bill Norton likes this.
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    My earlier comments were based only on the abstract. I had little time then and didn't locate the main paper. I have since located and briefly skimmed the main paper.

    It briefly discusses other smart pedal designs from Nissan and Bosch, before moving on to this particular product.

    The test "fleet" was 6 CalTrans pickup trucks: two F-150s, an F-250, an F-350, a Ram 1500, and a Ram 2500. A Bolt EV was initially included, but dropped due to data collection difficulties. The test period was approximately mid-August to mid-December 2022, two months without the device, then two months with it. Idle time and downhill grade miles (as determined by data loggers) were filtered out from the calculations. Total combined test fleet miles were 7475 miles without the device, and 10,313 miles with it, though I don't know if these totals are before or after the downslope filtering. Illustrations included mapped GPS tracks for each vehicle, and speed-binned MPG distributions for each vehicle.

    That "average" savings of 6.29%, and payback period of 15.76 months, is not for the whole fleet, but for the single vehicle showing the best results, the F-250, which was driven 548.0 miles without the device, and 2793.4 with it. This vehicle had by far the fewest baseline miles without the device, and also the largest difference in miles driven without vs. with the device.

    The other vehicles showed savings of 4.23, 3.02, 0.47, -0.52, and -1.72%:

    "These small negative differences in average fuel economy are not expected to be reflective of the performance of the SmartPedalTM device since there is no mechanism for this effect, but rather reflective of uncontrolled nature of this study. [emphasis added] This study consisted of real-world operation and the contribution of unknown variables that could potentially impact fuel economy is unknown. Unknown factors that can impact fuel economy are discussed in Section 4.1, and include factors such as unknown payload, number of passengers, changes in driver, etc."

    A lot more study is needed to determine if this device is actually beneficial, under what conditions, for which drivers:

    "5.1 Recommendations and Future Research

    Since the impact of the SmartPedalTM technology may be difficult to determine from a smaller sample size in an uncontrolled test under real-world conditions, additional testing would be needed to increase confidence in the effectiveness of the SmartPedalTM device and to characterize fuel savings with respect to other parameters such as vehicle speed. Two options for additional testing are a study with a much larger sample size performed under real-world conditions or a smaller study performed under more controlled conditions. In a controlled study, specific routes could be driven repeatedly, alternating between the baseline and the SmartPedalTM technology condition. The study could ensure that the driver, the number of passengers, vehicle payload, traffic conditions, road conditions, accessory usage, and other parameters that could potentially affect fuel economy, are as comparable as possible. Another area of study could also focus on driver behavior to determine if the SmartPedalTM device provides more value to drivers with certain behaviors."

     
    #66 fuzzy1, Sep 19, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2023
  7. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    6,405
    3,404
    0
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Got some real good water front property in south Florida for sale cheap!
     
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Checking and playing with a couple of their raw data files, these mile totals are very clearly before the negative slope miles are filtered out.

    After negative slope filtering, this vehicle had 481.3 baseline miles without the device, and 2597.6 miles with the device.

    I don't compute the same MPGs they display in Table 4.1. They show 12.88 MPG baseline, and 13.69 mpg with the device, a 6.29% gain. But with the 0-speed (idle) time and negative slope datapoints filtered out, per their stated method, I get 14.00 and [Edit: updated figure] 14.12 MPG, respectively, a 0.85% gain (before rounding) for the smartpedal.

    With a bit of forensics, I can get their baseline figure of 12.88 MPG by filtering out just the negative slopes, and not the idle time, which accounts for 18550 seconds (5.15 hours) of the non-negative slope time and includes about 3 gallons of fuel burned while parked and idling. But I haven't yet found a way to get something close to their claimed 13.69 MPG from the SmartPedal dataset.

    I hope I haven't made any serious spreadsheet errors in my calculations. The work is cumbersome enough that I haven't applied it to the other vehicles, and probably won't.

    Will anyone else look at and play with these data files, to check my results or find other things?

    ===================================================
    PS. For the curious, here are some plots illustrating the uncontrolled nature of these tests. For the F-250, this first plot is the relative amount of time spent at each speed. It is essentially a probability distribution function, X-axis is MPH, Y-axis is somewhat arbitrarily scaled (actually, % of the speed data falling in a 2 kph/wide bin, as the instrumentation clearly measured in integer kph, later converted to standard American units). From a histogram of the speed data logged each second, 11.4 hours for the Baseline set, 63.1 hours for the SmartPedal set:

    upload_2023-9-19_22-33-9.png

    Note that the Baseline spent more time at <10 mph and also >65 mph, both typically lower than average fuel economy, while the SmartPedal spent more time in the 30-50 mph range which would typically shows better fuel economy.

    Here is the same data, re-plotted as a cumulative distribution function:

    upload_2023-9-19_22-53-27.png
     
    #68 fuzzy1, Sep 19, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2023
    Mr. F likes this.
  9. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,912
    635
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Fuzzy ! You are one data analyzing guy! Thanks for your report of this 'thing'.

    Just simple seasonal differences can add up to more than ~6%.
    Save your dollars on this gizmo, regardless of hearsay reports by forum members with a financial interest in this 'product'.

    I can guarantee ~6% increase in MPG with no gizmo needed. Drive 5 mph slower everywhere you go! You're Welcome!

    I'd say 80% of my driving is with my Adaptive Cruise Control engaged. This expensive little thing would just be along for the ride most of the time.
     
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,892
    16,202
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    That sounds so much like "yup, that's what you'd have to do" that I confess I was thinking that was what they'd be doing the first time.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I hope that someone else will run their own analysis, to see if they get the same or similar result. I'm not error-free, and had to correct one number on this already, though the change was very small.

    Yup. Even without changing drivers, which can have an even greater impact. These CalTrans vehicles likely had multiple drivers through the test period.
     
    #71 fuzzy1, Sep 20, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2023
    Bill Norton likes this.
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I guess when the funding grant is only $140693, one has to cut some corners somewhere.
     
    Grit likes this.
  13. AzusaPrius

    AzusaPrius Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    2,069
    868
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Love having my smart pedal on my Prius.

    No doubt keeping the RPM down and makes everything sound smoother.

    I am currently in mode 1

    Started off the way it was shipped which should be mode 3 or 4

    Have tested mode 6 also.

    Too bad they did not show data samples of a Prius.

    Since anything a user says is just jibber jabber.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Without hard data, user jibber jabber is commonly unable to identity uncontrolled conflating variables and very powerful placebo effects. Especially when there is some profit to be made.

    Then there is also measured data that, upon close examination, turns out to be surprisingly soft.
     
    Grit likes this.
  15. AzusaPrius

    AzusaPrius Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    2,069
    868
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    @fuzzy1

    Out of all the products you have ever bought in your life, did you always think like that?

    If so then you must be very upset that any company made a profit off of you correct?

    Did you look for reviews of items you got and not believe any of them?

    This goes for anything you can ever buy in your life but I guess you dont like to save a little money when buying things.

    If someone says they can save you some, I guess you say nah...I will pay full price.

    Or dont buy it or waste time talking about something you dont have and walk away.
     
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,892
    16,202
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I don't see why; companies that build a genuinely working product I want and profit by selling it to me, I've got no beef with at all. Most of the products I own I got that way. I didn't see fuzzy1 say anything different.

    There's a useful skill set to have that gives you more choices than just "oh I believe that review" or "oh I don't believe that review."

    You can also have the choice to, say, evaluate the review.

    As fuzzy1 has so handily demonstrated.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  17. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,912
    635
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Such as.....:confused:
    "What's love got to do with it", T. Turner
    Just a sweet emotion.

    Show us hard data. A year's worth to deal with seasonal differences. Have you had this gizmodic that long?
    If you want clicks on your links,,,so you can get in on that 'profit',,, you need to do more than talk about 'amazing products'.
    How's that water injection going?:whistle:
     
    #77 Bill Norton, Sep 21, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2023
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,892
    16,202
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Wasn't it "a second-hand emotion"?

    Or a "sweet old-fashioned notion"?
     
    Bill Norton likes this.