Snow Driving Help

I personally don't understand people who can afford to buy a new car like a Prius, lives in an area that regularly gets snow, chooses *not* to invest in snow tires, then complain about how bad the stock all-season tires are.

If you can afford the *new* car, money is not the issue, and you can budget to buy a set of tires in advance... since this is really what you are doing, as your "summer" tires are not wearing down while you roll on the winter tires and each set will therefore last you ~ twice as long.

If you are able to change a tire, you can save yourself a few bucks in labour and have the winters mounted on a second set of rims, then spend an hour or so (I am being generous here) twice a year to practice your tire-changing skills, something every driver should be able to do anyway.

The only added cost here is a set of steel rims ($200?) and a little elbow grease twice a year, which reaps the benefits of giving yourself maximum traction for the current conditions, thereby making your car safer and reducing your chance of getting stranded somewhere. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

I don't understand people who don't see this logic...?

 

I think it does come down to how much experience you have in driving in snow. This is my 3rd winter driving our 2006 Prius in snow and we've had more snow and ice this winter than has been true for many years (about 53 inches so far). I find that OEM tires (inflated at 42 front, 40 rear) DO work well in the snow "if" one doesn't give it too much acceleration. There have been times where, from a dead stop on a slight incline with ice underneath, I've had to back up a bit and start out as slow as possible.

I will note one occurrence that just happened the other day where I came really close to colliding at a slow speed with another vehicle. It was in the parking ramp at work. Pavement where I needed to make the turn to start up to the next level apparently had more snow melt/ice than I knew. I was over my half of the driving area a little more than I should have as I anticipated the sharp right turn ahead. Anyway, I entered the turn just as oncoming vehicle did. I hit my brakes and really didn't stop at all. Fortunately, I was going so slow to begin with that we passed without touching but it was really close. Long-story point is that always allowing for adequate stopping distance is a must as is true with other vehicles in similar conditions BUT I really do think my Prius takes a little longer to completely stop on icy roads.

Jim

 

No, what popped my cork was the suggestion my winter driving skills were at fault. Despite the fact I learned how to drive in a wintery climate. After all, you claim you have no trouble on all season tires or even bald tires, so obviously my driving skills are at fault

I have covered in another post how close I came to getting t-boned at an intersection here - Waveryly and Bishop Grandin - when my 2004 Prius running Michelin Harmony "all season" tires decided to stop and REFUSE TO MOVE. Didn't matter if I gently pushed the gas pedal or floored the gawd*** thing, nothing.

My backordered winter tires *finally* arrived soon after that fun episode, and it completely changed the character of the vehicle. My first time trying studless winter tires, but IMHO on ice their traction still couldn't approach a "real" studded winter tire

Last fall I ordered a set of studded Goodyear Nordic winter tires from Canadian Tire. THis is the same as the Goodyear Ultra Grip 500 sold in Europe. This is a very aggressive winter tire and on ice and light snow, I can easily blow the doors off a pickup, SUV, or awd car.

However, once I bog down in drifted snow - which happened about a year ago at my hobby farm - then the Trac came back to haunt me. It was impossible to rock the Prius, tires refused to turn. So my aggressive winter tires cover up the hyper sensitive Trac, but by no means cure it

In contrast, my FJ Cruiser has a Trac that works as it should. It first applies the brake to the spinning rear wheel, then moderates engine torque. With studless Toyo Open Country G-02 Plus, I *never* drive in 4wd. It will happily push snow with the front bumper - in 2wd

My Prius also had the Stall issue, so I guess I'm one of the "lucky" few to experience that. Between the hyper-sensitive Traction Control and The Stall, I tend to be *much* more willing to believe a Prius owner is having a problem with their car

Whether the highway instability issues that affect a handful of Prius owners, dead 12 vdc batteries, refusing to budge on 2 inches of snow, etc, I give the benefit of the doubt. Not a smartass suggestion that perhaps the winter driving skills aren't up to the task, since obviously [Sarcasm Mode ON] your Prius will charge through snow and ice on bald tires [Sarcasm Mode OFF]

 

Now that I think of it, did you notice any difference in Trac behavior between the old Prius and the one you have now? Just curious.

 

Well, what screwed me was by the time I knew I wanted a Prius, and got one, the winter tire season was over. Typically, around here winter tires sell out usually by October or November. So nobody had winter tires in the 185 65 15 size I needed

Finally managed to get on the wait list for some Dunlop Graspic DS-2 studless winter tires. In the meantime, driving around on the Michelin Harmony "all season" was downright scary. I started borrowing my parents 2003 Buick LeSabre, which the old man always equipped with studded tires for winter.

Kind of embarassing for a middle aged guy to bum the car off the folks

The Graspic tires made a *huge* difference, as I knew they would. Ice traction was still lacking - in my opinion - but at least the car was no longer helpless

The next summer, while in storage at the condo I used to have, the Dunlop's were damaged by vandalism committed by a subcontractor doing some work at the building. It was all caught on the surveillance cameras, so he immediately agreed to get me new winter tires

Next winter I ran a set of Yokohama Ice Guard 10's. Those were better on snow and ice, but the highway tracking was squirmy. I decided to go back to a studded tire so August of 2006 I got some Goodyear Nordic's from Canadian Tire. Same tire as the Goodyear Ultra Grip 500 sold in Europe

I've tried to read some European tire test articles, the ones I came across were in Swedish or German so I was pretty clueless. However, based on the rankings, the studded Nokians and the Ultra Grip 500 ranked top of the list

The Goodyear Nordic is very reasonably priced, far cheaper than a Nokian. It's a very aggressive winter tire, so the tread is noisy on dry pavement

I agree with all your comments related to winter tires

 

yes i do. my 2004 could not handle even the slightest incline if the road was icy.

my 2006 navigated iced-over roads very well even when going down a icy hill and purposefully hitting the brakes and changing lanes, it worked excellently.

last year, the Northwest was hit by an ice and snow storm (you would have seen it on Monday Night Football) and approximately 1500 vehicles were literally abandoned on the freeways because they could not negotiate the hills on the way home from the game. some reported taking 10 hours to get home!! we had a freak fast moving snowstorm that only dumped about 3-4" and started to turn to rain, but cleared up and temps dropped into the teens creating nothing but ice.

well, the next day, i spent the day driving around the sound, passing pretty close to 100 cars either sitting on the sides of the roads (the ones abandoned IN A FREEWAY LANE were the first to be towed) or in the process of being towed.

it was slick no doubt. average freeway speeds were 15-25 mph...and the surface streets were ice and abandoned... so no traffic to speak of...which was nice because i actually slid thru a stoplight or two that was on a side of a hill. but more than once, i would be stopped on an uphill slope and take off and i could feel the traction pulsing like always, but instead of pulsing once every second or two like my 04, it pulsed more like 2-3 times per second which did allow me to slowly gather speed and go UP the hill.

granted, i was not gonna make any appointments on time, a few hills, i dont think i got to more than 7-8 mph...but i WAS moving...one hill was so steep that i drifted sideways back and forth as i crawled up the hill. but with stock tires, not bad

 

I, unlike you, wasn't accusing any one of their driving skills. I simply put it up as a possible solution to an issue. You on the other hand, you seemed to take this as a personal attack, and proceeded to use "sarcasm" in regards to my obviously magical and talented prius. It was nothing against YOU personally, or anyone. It is possible that in a skill that requires practice a know how, that one person may be better at that particular skill than another. Snow driving is a learned skill, it doesn't come to you naturally. I simply suggested that the possibility of someone who is not an experienced snow driver thinking the standard tires on the prius sucked in snow, simply because they lacked the knowledge and experience in doing so.

If you've been driving in the snow since you were a wee boy, great! If you think the stock prius tires suck, thats great too. My question had nothing to do with your driving, but only the reasoning behind WHY you think the prius tries suck, as there are many prius on the road with stock tires and they are getting around fine (i.e mine).

If i offended you by suggesting that one may think that the tires are less effective in the snow may be because they are less experienced, i apologize, as my intent was to get information, not brag about my prius or my driving.

 

It's difficult in a message board environment to actually hear tone of voice, see facial expressions, or, occasionally, know which posting someone is responding to.

Knowing how to drive on snow is a very personal thing.
I spent 25 years in Minnesota. I learned to drive there, in the first place.
How I drive on snow may be very different than how anyone else drives on snow, yet I never had an accident, and the only snow bank I ever ended up stuck in was in my own driveway.

There are those that drive in snow by going 20 mph, and never a bit faster.
There are those that drive in snow by having good tires, and knowing how to drive at normal speeds in snow.
Me, I'm a good tire/fairly normal speed driver, in all weather conditions.
The only time I didn't drive "normal" is when I drove from Winnepeg to Alexandria in freezing rain in the middle of the night. Even then, there were a bunch of cars and trucks in the ditches and median, some on their sides, while I "crawled" along at 30 mph... I made it, because I "know how to drive" on ice and snow.

I replaced the OEM tires at 7K, because in order to keep them, with our weather here, I would have to alter my driving style, and drive much slower than I am used to, in wet conditions. As I am already passed by a lot of drivers that are even more comfortable than I am with driving in standing water, I don't think that "dumbing down" my driving style is the best option for me... so, I chose much better tires.

So, you see, for someone who obviously drives in snow and ice to say, "Whatever" to the question of someone else's driving abilities, seemed to me to be pretty appropriate.

YMMV

 

The Tire Rack - Your performance experts for tires and wheels

I think those Dunlops are pretty decent. I have personal experience with the Nokian Hakkapellitas and all I have to say is WOW. 8" of snow and if I couldn't have seen it I wouldn't have even known it was there.

They don't sell the Nokians on tirerack, but they do have Bridgestone Blizzaks as well as the Dunlops and some good Pirellis available for your touring.

 

I can drive in the snow without snow tires. I can also use a screw driver as a chisel, but I don't, unless it's my only option. The OEM tires are adequate, but no better than that. The Prius is a great car and deserves better tires. The OEM tires are like putting cheap speakers on a good stereo; it just doesn't make sense.

As to the argument of whether you need snow tires, or better all-season tires, or just stay with the OEM tires, let me point out the obvious by reminding everyone that driving conditions vary greatly from one location to another. If you live in a flat part of the country it's a lot different than living in the mountains. Likewise wet snow is a whole different animal than cold, dry powder. I've had my Jeep C-J5 stuck in three inches of wet snow, even with the most aggressive tires imaginable, short of studded. Other times I've driven through drifts deeper than the hood. Making blanket statements is silly. There are, however, some simple facts about winter driving and tires:

1) Snow tires are better than all-season tires.
2) Most (all?) good all-season tires are better than the OEM tires.
3) Good tires facilitate winter driving, even if you could get by with less.

As for me, I run with good all-season tires. We have hills, but no mountains. We get a lot of snow, but the snow removal is very good, so the roads mostly stay open. If the roads were less maintained, I would use snow tires. If I lived in a warm climate, I'd use summer tires. Either way, I wouldn't use the OEM tires. They are noisy, handle poorly, and have limited grip in low traction situations. That's my opinion; ymmv.

Tom

PS: I was just about to hit the submit button when I was drawn to the window by the sound of spinning tires. A FedEx semi truck is stuck on the hill outside my office window. He is sitting there spinning his tires, trying to burn his way up the hill and around the corner. Big clouds of blue smoke are pouring out from the tires, but still he makes no progress. Whoops, there he goes backing down the hill. Now it's another run and it looks like he's going to make it...nope, not this time. He's burning the tires again. If he just didn't have that Prius traction control <grin>. This is a good example of how with or without traction control, if it's too slippery, it's just too slippery. The laws of physics can't be overcome just because you have a traction control override switch. Well, there he goes. He's off, minus a bit of tire rubber.

 

At the time, the exchange rate still favored the American dollar, and I would have been nailed with all sort of customs fees. I just borrowed the folks 2003 Buick with studded tires and had no trouble at all

I actually like the Dunlop Graspic DS-2 and would recommend them to anybody looking for a decent studless winter tire with good highway manners. They work especially well in snow

Remember that my 2004 Prius appears to have the hyper sensitive Trac. On icy roads it really needs a good studded tire. With the studded Goodyear Nordic from Canadian Tire, my Prius is now a great winter car.

However, if I happen to bog in deep snow, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to "rock" the car out. The front wheels refuse to turn and the Trac light on the dash will blink.

When I bogged down a year ago near the hobby farm, after a blizzard, I had to use my cell phone to call a neighbor. He came to my rescue in his wife's 2005 Ford Focus stick shift wagon. He had been looking for winter tires for his wife, as she is a Home Care nurse and has to be out in some terrible weather conditions.

I had bragged about the studded Nordic's and he got 4 on his wife's station wagon. He had no trouble at all easing the little focus around my Prius. He did bog down once but with very light clutch pressure was able to easily rock free

So we shovelled around the front and rear of the Prius and he pushed and pushed as I tried to rock. In the end, I had to leave the driver door open and poke my left foot out to also assist, finally got the stupid thing to budge. Yes, the Trac light was blinking constantly

As I have stated repeatedly, I'm sure only a relative handful of Prius cars experience this sort of hyper sensitive Trac. Just as a relative handful experience highway tracking stability issues, or have had the Stall happen in traffic like I did

The Prius is a great car and I would probably get another one. But I see no need to "defend" the Prius from complaints of being stranded due to hyper sensitive Trac. Let Toyota defend their Prius.

I certainly would never question the winter driving ability of a person who is having trouble with a Prius. A poster who will claim they have had no issues with other front wheel drive cars, and suddenly can't make it up the same hill in a Prius, implies either crap OEM tires and/or a Trac that is too sensitive

On the issue of Trac, in the manufacturing process there are many variables. Tolerances cover a certain range. If those tolerances (Body, sensors, wiring, etc) all happen to line up a certain way, you have a problem