So, the Volt is just a wanna be PIP, right?

What isn't Toyota already doing that they should?

They've diversified the hybrid system in a variety of ways. Prius itself is available in 3 different styles/sizes. HSD is available with different engines & motors as well as AWD and RWD. There's also the plug-in option, which does an excellent job of presenting the next step without requiring customers change much.

Toyota also kept cost-containment as a major priority... advice GM gave itself, then disregarded and is now struggling to deal with. Remember all those years hearing about the importance of $30,000 as a purchase price to achieve mainstream volume? That is now MSRP for the base Prius PHV and reasonable with respect to cost & profit.

What else is there at this time and in this market?

 

Toyota makes it a point, repeatedly, to denounce electric cars and instead supports hydrogen technology. They refuse to put out a plug in with reasonable range at an affordable price point so conquest sales to GM and Ford have to hurt a little. GM has put much more effort into customer satisfaction for the Volt and Spark than Toyota has for the PIP. Remind me again what the number one trade in for the Volt is?

 

The devil is in the details. The "most" statistic is very, very outdated now. We really truly don't know which vehicle it is for 2013... nor does it matter, since sales are only at the niche level anyway. We also don't know how many drivers of Volt are actually owners. Lots of those "sales" were actually leases, another factor quite different from mainstream.

Target audience is of huge importance. Focusing heavily on enthusiasts doesn't tell the whole story or take the big picture into account. The responses not taking that seriously are red-herrings at this point. Look at how the things the perspective of plugging in has changed, the new challenges now being faced.

Toyota is aiming squarely at middle-market consumers.

 

You forgot the small print...
Toyota is going after the middle market consumers, in a few limited states.

 

Toyota abides by it.

Government Motors does not.

DBCassidy

 

That's an interesting comment. What specifically does it refer to?

As a computer programmer for over 20 years, I know extremely well how less can actually mean more. Not having user-calls to respond to can be an indication that they are pleased with what you delivered. You don't want the system to stand out. You want it to become ubiquitous, so common people just use it without any thought.

We all know that situation extremely well from experience with the regular Prius. It is mature product, a system with all the kinks worked out already. The majority of owners are rarely ever heard from. They simply drive their Prius with content. They are satisfied. Consider it a job well done when it is used without complaint. That's how success is defined.

Again, what else is there?

 

That explains why they had only 2 submodels of PiP with a difference of $8k on the MSRP, limited the sale states in a way that excludes some of the larger plug-in markets and used variable incentives.

 

Volt is just trying to match the fore runner: Toyota Prius, which Government Motors dismissed early on in the market intro of the Prius.

WOW, how times changed, you see Prius HSD every where you go.

That can't be said of the Volt.

DBCassidy

 

No I didn't. National rollout will begin with the 2014 model, as mentioned countless times since the delay announced early this year. Waiting to clear out 2013 stock, then lowering MSRP prior to that expansion makes sense. We saw this coming. They will reach those middle-market consumers without changes to the vehicle itself.

That's it? The only gripe is national availability and waiting for the price drop? Sweet!

 

Citation needed. Toyota had multiple press releases with the weasel-worded "A national rollout of Prius Plug-in is planned for 2013." The latest press announced the price reduction for the 2014 and still just said "The Prius Plug-in is available in 15 states (California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia and Hawaii)" making no mention of a national roll-out.

 

By stating it's needed, you concur that national availability and the price drop is the only gripe?

What if there is another delay? We know they said late this year. I could hunt down that source. But GM said the same with ELR, which is now being delivered in January.

Also, ask yourself what national rollout really needs to be. What if Toyota opens up a website for direct deliver? It sure makes inventory handling a whole lot less expensive and easier on dealers. That method has also been successfully utilized in the past. Would that count?

 

Do you really not get it?

The point is that Toyota's entire approach to the PiP has been reactive and minimalistic.

 

Toyota is in the position that only Government Motors craves to be in: Having the lions' share of the hybrid market.
Toyota also can afford not to go 50 states with the plug in.

Government Motors: same old, same old.

DBCassidy

Not true, Toyota CAN afford to test the market with a PIP. Toyota already controls the majority of the hybrid market with a solid, affordable, dependable hybrid.

Toyota believes in themselves.

That, can not be said of Government Motors.

DBCassidy

 

What possible benefit could come from being proactive and taking major risk? Observing other automaker mistakes in the emerging plug-in market to avoid making them is a wise move.

GM claimed price didn't matter, people would be willing to pay for what they were offering. They were wrong. Toyota avoided association with that mistake by restricting availability, while gathering valuable real-world data from actual owners in the meantime. Now, they're using that information to expand & improve.

Ford rolled out their plug-in hybrid late last year. That configuration seriously compromised cargo space, but claimed the capacity tradeoff was well worth it. We still await results of that. Based on sales so far, the impression is consumers don't agree. Toyota's choice continues to show potential.

The impression I get is you believe there's missed opportunity. Having driven a Prius PHV for 1.5 years now in an area not even supporting the EV beyond being just a curiosity, I can strongly disagree. The other automakers misjudged the challenges of rolling out vehicles offering a plug. Toyota's approach makes sense.

 

It is a "safe" move. Wise or not, time will tell.
Thankfully Toyota took the bold move with hybrid technology back it the late 90s, early 2000s.

 

No, I'm saying that if a company really wants to increase sales they would make the car available as widely as possible, as soon as possible.

I'm saying that they wouldn't start with an embarrassingly high price that leaves huge amounts of space for the competition to take sales from them.

I'm saying that they wouldn't have a gaping price difference between the 2 sub-models, created by an expensive forced option, when the same platform's hybrid models do not force that option. (Policy finally reversed for 2014.)

Why would there need to be a delay? There is no change to the 2014 PiP, other than a subtraction of a forced upgrade of a feature available on the liftback and v.

Why would multiple past press releases, including ones in 2011 say they planned a 2013 roll-out, while the press release for 2014 trumpeting a significant price drop failed even to mention a national roll-out?

Toyota already has a large national distribution system. People already order cars through dealers to get what they want. The car's been out for over a year and a half. In terms of maintenance the PiP only has minor differences to the Prius liftback for distribution there's no difference. The new model year has no changes.

Why can't people just order one now? Any online ordering system cannot bypass their franchises. Participation decided by the dealer, price set by the dealer, sales contract with the dealer, prep at the dealer. If you want home delivery I'm sure the dealer would be happy to let you pay for it.

Sure, you can purchase out-of-state, but a lot of people don't want to buy from an out-of-state dealer.

 

When compared to the sales of the non-plug in model, the Ford Energis have a take rate of 12% to 14% of the hybrid sales.

The Prius plug in, at best, has 7%. This is after factoring in that it is only available in a limited number of states.

National roll out was once slated for June 2013. Now, it is 'currently under study' according to Toyota's website. The PPI sold well last month, reversing its downward slide. Nationwide, it would be competing with the Volt and Leaf in sales. It would also clear out their 2013 inventory faster.

 

The PiP's a minor enhancement that increases the appeal of the Prius. It's still a Prius, but it's a better Prius. Had they priced it and marketed it as an enhanced Prius it would have been judged as such. Instead, they just tried to ride credits and HOV-lane access. When the Volt got HOV lane access PiP sales immediately took a nosedive, showing just what people thought of the car. Sales were rescued by incentives. They've rolled the PiP out slowly and left enthusiastic Prius owners like ksstathead outside of their major Prius markets stuck. They've completely ignored the potential of the Texas technology triangle. The result is the PiP is widely viewed as a half-assed pretend EV, instead of a step forward and they've helped the competition to establish their PEVs.

Not only that, but when you combine the PiP, the CA-only-by-force attitude to the RAV4 EV, the abandoning of other BEV, repeated public statements from Toyota that they don't believe in EV and the result is Toyota destroying any image as a leader in electrification and instead is now seen as a hybrid manufacturer desperately hoping that plug-ins don't succeed and destroy their only market advantage.

GM thought the Volt would sell despite the price and Toyota though the PiP would sell despite the price. (Some people on this site thought it was just a matter of people understanding the advantages). The big difference is that people view the Volt as too expensive, while they view the PiP as overpriced. GM keep saying that they need to and are working on bringing down the costs. Toyota says nothing.

There is a huge market of people enthusiastic about the potential of PEV but who aren't early adopters willing to lay down a lot of money. Toyota's doing everything likely to alienate that market.

 

They learned the benefit of waiting. So, that's what they've done.

Recognizing the difference between want and need is a big deal.

Ironically, GM did indeed sell what they wanted. That didn't work out.

Observing customer preference and being able to react to it has always been a strength of Toyota. The system is designed with flexibilty in mind, being able to offer small improvements. That too is a strength. Why are you portraying those traits as a bad thing?

Look at well positioned Prius PHV is now for 2014. There's lots of real-world data available now, enough to prevent the spread of misconceptions revealed by the limited rollout. That's reacting to actual situations, rather than guessing what could happen. A clear message is sent about expectations. We've also observed consumer price preference. Toyota adjusted price accordingly, prior to entering new markets. Delivering what matches expectations is a good thing.

The build it and they'll buy it hasn't proven successful, which is why Toyota isn't doing that. Notice how it instead resembles the sidewalk wisdom? Laying sidewalks where the paths have already been worn results in dramatically higher acceptance.

 

Third paragraph "GM thought" - yes past tense on the Volt. Miscue on Government Motors behalf. Incentives, tax credits aside, how much affordability is the Volt? Toyota PIP, while some see as overpriced, customers always can go with a very affordable regular Prius.

Also, on a slightly different subject, value retained on resale. Toyota does, to the very day, rings around Government Motors. Toyota has some of the highest resale $ in the market.

Government Motors does not.

DBCassidy