"Soldiers of Islam" bomb Record Store

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lywyllyn @ Mar 22 2007, 04:40 PM) [snapback]410399[/snapback]</div>

I''m not an ambassador. I'm not a negotiator. I've studied Political Science at length, but I only hold a minor in that field. I don't work for the State Department. I'm wise enough to know that I would be clueless in coming up with a solid plan to end terrorism. If it were that easy, don't you think that I'd have done that by now? That we'd all have done that by now? That was a truly stupid statement, desynch.

Have you ever played "Whack-a-Mole?" I feel that's where we are with terrorism today. We shut down one cell, up pops another. It sucks when several pop up at the same time. It's never over until your time runs out--or you unplug the machine in the first place. I'm all for unplugging the machine. It seems as you want to keep beating those moles' heads off until your own arm falls off. Wouldn't it have been easier just to unplug the machine? The question is how? The answer: I don't know. What I do know is that since 2003, we haven't even had diplomatic discussions with ANY country accused of harboring/funding terrorism. And that's absolutely not going to make anything better. I also know that there will always be terrorism of some kind--unless humankind itself is wiped out. The Smasking Pumpkins song comes to mind "Despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage." Some society is going to hate another society for whatever reason. Terrorist activities have been committed by all sorts of people since the beginning of time.

One of the best examples of a reduction in terrorist activities (IMHO) was not in the Middle East, but in Ireland. That issue was resolved (even though there are still hardline PIRA members around) through treaty...a political process. It had to be attempted many times for it to finally work, but it did. Great example of groups on the fringes deciding to come back to meet somewhere in the middle for the greater good.

What made them (on both sides) decide to do it? I haven't studied enough to know. What it seems, though, is that new leadership, raised in a different time than predecessors, were able to come to the realization that killing and elimination were not going to change anything for anybody.I think England felt a responsibility to Ireland, understanding that England was truly the stronger power of the two, to assist and play an active role in working their differences out. And yes, a lot of the PIRAs/Sinn Fein's issues were not just based on rule, representation, etc., but also on actions by the English that took place decades before.

Llwyllyn, just trying to add fodder to a serious discussion you are trying to have.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 22 2007, 03:52 PM) [snapback]410485[/snapback]</div>

Desynch, your outlook brings to mind a scene in Herb Gardner's "A Thousand Clowns" when Murray's brother, exasperated at his outlook, blurts out:

"I've finally figured out your problem, Murray. Other people. Well, look out, Murray. They're EVERYWHERE!"

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lywyllyn @ Mar 22 2007, 04:42 PM) [snapback]410446[/snapback]</div>

As long as you're not holding your breath.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 22 2007, 05:23 PM) [snapback]410468[/snapback]</div>

Thank you! I appreciate your input. Well that makes two us who just want a solid solution. As for the liberal label that desynch keeps throwing around, I don't call myself one, at least not intentionally, I like to think of myself as human, (despite my alien ancestry) I have feelings, emotions and of course opinions. I am not infallible nor do I claim to be so, again not intentionally.

I think you are heading in the right direction, it is the young and untainted generation that has the possibility to overcome their parents narrow mindedness and the religious and sociatal dogma pressed upon them in order to not only free themselves from the parental oversight, but also to grow spiritually into an accepting human being. This is not going to happen over night and surely many will be diverted by radicals and zealots and brainwashed into doing their bidding. Maybe its part education and part stringent enforcements of limits, such as you can't go about bombing the crap out of people because they happened to wear the wrong kind of sandal.

Have you ever seen American History X? I am looking for an approach that has that kind of potential, get the young generation on the right path, before the nutters get to them. Provide them with enough information and confidence that if they do end up the hands of one of those zealots, that they don't just blindly follow along and kill in the name of whomever. Fanaticism would not be as big of a problem if potential followers had all the facts before joining up ? ?

Again, I am not proposing going easy on murderers, zealots and fanatics, I am looking for a way to avoid creating more of them. If their ideas fall on infertile minds, their ideas will gradually die out (or so I hope).

I am still hoping the good dr will find some time to respond in earnest and with the eloquence I know he possesses.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 22 2007, 06:13 PM) [snapback]410500[/snapback]</div>

Now that is uncalled for! This is a discussion forum not a monologue with you on the main stage. I have asked for an honest exchange but all you seem to produce these days is bile. I am sorry I don't know how else to frame it, I am disappointed.

Please provide a proper response in light of the discussion, provide a solution suggestion if you can, else I suggest a spoon full off your own R/x.

 

desynch, you have no plan, either, so point your criticism inward. If you actually read the rest of my post, I would have hoped it would make you start the arduous process of actually THINKING. I should've known better. That's what I get for hoping that the one glimpse of respectability I've seen out of you was not an isolated incident.

Go launder your karma. It needs it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Mar 22 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]410512[/snapback]</div>

:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 23 2007, 12:52 AM) [snapback]410685[/snapback]</div>

And once again saying I know nothing about something. I have a strong feeling that I'm much more educated on...well, just about everything...than you. Including karma.

So, just curious what you think our current administration's plan is. It seems like you want it to be "kill all Muslims in case we can't figure out which ones are terrorists." For this administration, I don't see any plan they have on addressing or even fighting terrorism itself. They can call it a war on terror all they want, but hell, we still haven't got the guy who was responsible for 9/11...ad nauseum, ad nauseum. But don't kid yourself. What's happening in Iraq is not terrorism. It's a power struggle for control of a country, left with a huge void because it's dictator (who apparently knew VERY WELL that having a heavy hand was the way the county needed to be handled) was toppled. And we're stuck in the middle of it. WE'RE NOT FIGHTING TERRORISTS IN IRAQ. WE'RE STANDING BETWEEN TWO FACTIONS THAT EACH WANT CONTROL. He said it his first year...Bush isn't into nation-building. He certainly wanted to be, but he's not.

And, btw, unless we address Saudi Arabia (never gonna happen, btw), terrorism with a middle east basis will be around.

Are you only posting these hate-filled diatribes to get lauded by Berman? Or are you actually looking for a discussion? Please answer which one. That way, I'll leave you and doc to your new relationship, help weld your brain shut, and step out of the way.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Mar 22 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]410443[/snapback]</div>

Batman left and is running for President. The Joker took over

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 23 2007, 07:54 AM) [snapback]410776[/snapback]</div>

Again, simply, what is your solution to the iraq war and the war on terror?

 

I probably should stay out of this troll thread, but I think we should kiss and hug the terrorists, then grab their guns. Booyaahh!! That should please both sides right? Oh yeah, then we need to abort all unborn Muslim children in the 9th month by sucking out their brains. Also, should be accaptable to both sides, right?

For goodness sakes, you can complain all you want about islamofacsicts, but why don't we address WHY they want to kill us instead of what to do about it?

You want an answer to what we should do about the whole mess....I've got one. We stop relying on the Muslim regions of the world for our energy supplies. That's it. That's why they hate us, that's why we're over there, and that's why we'll stay over there until either the last drop of oil is gone, or we just stopping needing that oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Mar 23 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]410840[/snapback]</div>

:lol: :lol: :lol:

And, "agreed" to your last two paragraphs. I mentioned the same idea (take away funding, take away the power) in a post, and it was ignored. They'd rather keep playing whack-a-mole.

 

I have made no personal attacks on you or your buddy in this thread. And I have offered up a semblance of an idea for a solution--you just didn't read it, or it went over your head, or you discarded it because it came from a "pathetic excuse for an American." (And that IS a personal attack that you launched a few posts ago.)

Nice.

The posters on this thread who think your comments sound a little maniacal have all offered you a chance to engage in a thoughtful and provocative discussion. You have chosen not to participate. Why I keep being surprised at this just shows my overriding optimism.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 23 2007, 12:27 PM) [snapback]410919[/snapback]</div>

truly sorry, and i dont view it as an attack - i am sorry i missed your solution for this problem - the war in iraq and the war on terror. let me know what you think we should do?

 

Livelychick, they are specifically going after you, as you seem to get flustered by them. That's all they want. They don't want solutions, debate, reasoning, answers. Just sh**ts and giggles as you get your panties in a bunch. That's why you don't feed the trolls. respond to who you want to and don't feel compelled to respond to them. (Most PChatters completely ignore those type of posters).

"What's your soution?"
"What's your soution?"
"What's your soution?"
----Solutions proposed by others besides the troll victim----
----crickets chirping------
"What's your soution?"
"What's your soution?"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Mar 23 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]410932[/snapback]</div>

Not so much flustered as perplexed. I've met lots of folks, had tons of debates/discussions with folks whose belief systems were entirely different than mine, and found them all to be reasonable, interesting, and helped me see/understand their ways of THINKING, even if I didn't agree. These two have me just perplexed because this doesn't happen with them.

Thanks for your thoughts! I appreciate it. And I have left them alone in other threads for the exact reasons you provided. And I probably will do so soon in this one, too.

 

I don't even know why I bother (eternal optimism I guess )... I am still waiting for a good suggestion from the dr, but I guess that is not forthcoming.

As for desynch's repertoire of nick names... amazing. Once again you are missing my point entirely, please read my post slowly.

Ready?

I did not and will not say that we should ignore fundamental aggression. I did not say that we should snuggle up to terrorist because they are misunderstood and need some lovin' and a good song.

What I said is that we need to get to the root of *why* there are new terrorists made every day. I believe it is because the younger generations in trouble zones grow up seeing poverty, hatred (among clans, religious factions and nations) and they don't perceive having a future. The don't grasp that they can make positive changes so instead the fall for the rhetoric and hype of their local nutcase extremists who blames all their ills on the enemy dejour.

No one has tried for the last 500 years to understand the reason for religious strive and regional tribal hatred, it was always swiftly blamed on "well they don't pray to the right god", "they are too dumb to survive", or "they are simply inferior to us and thus don't grasp the higher and nobler concept of peace and prosperity".

Again, let me make it very clear to you, as I fear you are reading into this the wrong. I am *not* talking about just holding hands and talking about problems in some kind of international self help group. I am trying to focus on what I needs to done *after* the extremists have been silenced, incarcerated or other wise removed from society (you choose death here)

What you are left with is a vacuum of ideas and future thought. Someone needs to step in and give the young kids a new perspective and tools to build themselves a future worth living and participating in. This process will take time, but I believe it is only sure way to permanently and solidly evolve away from hatred and bigotry.

So no catering to or ignoring fundamentalism *wherever* it exists. No tolerating or accommodating extremist views.

Please re-read my posts and you will see that no one here wants to subscribe to the "adopt a terrorist" program.

So, I have given you and berman my long term strategy. I think I have been forthright with my proposal, which I don't claim will work mind you. I am now challenging YOU, both of you, to tell me your ideas beyond kill everyone in Iraq. Which is what I think you are proposing.

Do you honestly think that you can exterminate an extremist ideology? Again, please focus on the long term solution, not on staving off the immediate threat from the few extremists successfully manipulating others around them into doing hateful things. It is agreed that such extreme hatred must be subdued in order for other ideas to be heard and bear fruit.

What are your ideas?