Featured Solid State Battery 10 Minute Charge Toyota - Lets Go Places

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by orenji, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    None of that is relevant.
    Yeah, it is. We have 350kW charging systems and we have electrical infrastructure that can run them.

    You entirely missed the point.

    The point is, if you charge 10 cars simultaneously for an hour at 100kW each, that's 1MW of capacity. If you instead charge 3 cars at 333kW for 20 minutes, followed by another set, followed by another set, that's the same 1MW of capacity and the same 9 cars charged per hour.

    Got that?
     
  2. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    I was trying to picture that hotel. Assume a modest Motel 6 with 80 rooms. That mandates parking for 80 cars. 80 x 50 amps is only 4000 amps. 4000 * 240volts is just 960,000 watts. That's a healthy feed for a business that typically needs only a few hundred watts per unit (plus occasional microwave oven use). I wonder how they'd wire those 80 50 amp receptacles across several acres of parking lot. Wire in a bunch of sub panels? Run a crap load of 00 wire for the longer runs?

    Or look at it financially. 80 customers that are using 100kWh each at a modest 11 cents an hour is about $880 a day. Gotta figure out a way to charge the customers for that.

    I would not like to work in a hotel where every customer is going to demand that they need the promised outlet to charge their car so that they can complete their trip. You are bound to have broken outlets, popped circuit breakers and other impediments.

    I'd like to offer a better solution, but realistically BEVs are not a perfect solution for long distance driving. You either need to overbuild the battery far beyond normal daily use or build up the charging infrastructure (and the grid to feed those chargers) to provide very fast charging to a smaller battery.

    Dan
     
  3. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    NO.
    Somebody missed the point. Maybe YOU?

    Your first example requires 1 MW Hours of capacity.
    The second example require 333 kW hours of capacity.
    Quite different.
     
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There is no reason why the hotel couldn't charge for charging a BEV, or even sub contract out to a third party charging service.
     
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  5. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    You missed the part of the post that I responded to that said "just need destination charging at hotels and such. And the fast and cheap way to do that is just to install NEMA 14-50 receptacles and have owners bring their own charging cords."

    Once you start doing metering and charging, it's no longer fast and cheap to implement.

    Dan

    I'm pretty sure that the line that said "100kw each" implied the "each" when it later said "3 cars at 333kW".

    Dan
     
    #185 dbstoo, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2021
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Sure it is.
    Place a sign by each 50A outlet. “Please pay $12 at the desk to start your charge”.
    Customer comes in, pays their $12 (or whatever amount works). Clerk flips the breaker to activate their charger.
     
  7. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    You got the math wrong too:

    10 cars at 100kW * 1 hour = 1MWh
    3 cars at 333kW * 20 minutes = 1/3MWh
    3 sets at 1/3 MWh = 1MWh

    Maybe you didn't read it: "...charge 3 cars at 333kW for 20 minutes, followed by another set, followed by another set..."
     
  8. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    I don't want to bicker about it, but we are talking about "cheap and easy" and in my hypothetical there are 80 spaces. Running the power from every distant parking stall back to a central breaker panel means that you have some really long runs, so bigger wire and more buried conduits. What does a conduit carrying 40 4/3 cables look like? How deep does it need to be buried? And that's just for 1/2 of the parking spaces.

    I would say that at that point we are no longer talking cheap or easy.

    Dan
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    You forgot how much juice gets used on elevators, water heating and AC for those 80 rooms. Not just their LED lights. And hotels don't presume 100% EV drivers startss next month, much less next year.
    .
     
  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    That's not how you do it.

    I once ran 2.5MW at 480V. We did it with 3 1000kcmil cables per phase in 3 conduits.

    If I really had to put in 80 charging ports in a parking lot, which is obviously unnecessary to do right away, I'd probably run #1 aluminum 3 phase to a central post with breakers for 8 ports, and put in 10 such poles, each near 8 parking spaces, 4x2 with the post in the middle. Most cords would reach all 8 spots if you park the right direction. I'd have to do the math but that's in the ballpark and that cable is about $2.50 a foot and a panel with breakers and outlets is about $400. Installation is dependent on the details of the building and land area.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Hotels in the frigid north also have outlets in the lot for engine block heaters.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I'm sure your have convinced yourself you are the smartest person ever.

    Unfortunately you can't read or think. I have no idea which.
    Please try doing that to my post before you reply with some strange comments. I was talking about optimum charging rate to put in today per charger. For sure if you have 4 chargers that can charge @ 250 kw each in a charging station, cars can charge at most at 270 kw and most are under 150 KW, putting in 1 1MW charger instaead of 4 250 kw chargers not only will cost more money but will not charge as many cars. In europe they are putting in dual chargers with 350 kw the maximum amount ccs plugs will take. If you have 3 330 kw stations they will charge fewer cars than 4 250 kw stations, but really what is being built is 4 stations that can share 700 kw, which can service more of todays cars than 3 - 330 kw stations. ;-)

    L2 chargers make more sense. It doesn't cost that much more, but can be safer than lots of plugging and unplugging. All the cars either can you them as is or as an adapter. Definitely a lot less expensive than DC. Battery buffers and faster grid connections can be built as more cars get charged. credit or charge network cards to use.

    On the road, we do need DC fast chargers. 56 chargers in the largest group in the US (California) , 80 lower powered chargers in china. battery buffers mean that they don't need the full power. If each car in that 56 charger system charges at an average of 25 minutes then it can handle around the volume of a busy gas station. These stations do need large grid connections and battery buffers.
     
    #192 austingreen, Jan 20, 2021
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

    Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.

    Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.

    StoreDot has already demonstrated its “extreme fast-charging” battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested in StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.
    . . .

    "5 minute charging ... 5 minute charging ... do I hear 4 minute charging?"

    Bob Wilson
     
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  14. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    I hate articles that say that they can work miracles when charging, but provide few or no specs. The article did say "The batteries can be fully charged in five minutes but this would require much higher-powered chargers than used today. Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025."

    There are many ways to achieve Storedot's objective. The simplest is to use a large battery and charge it at rates that decrease battery life. It's easy to get 100 miles of charge quickly if you have a big enough battery pack that it's not taxed by the 25 kwh that a tesla 3 would need to go 100 miles.

    Dan
     
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  15. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    I have to say that I agree with the assertion that there is no "optimum charging rate" to put in today per charger.

    Reasons:
    a) The cars are designed to overcome disadvantages of the charger. The chargers are designed to overcome the disadvantages of the cars. That's a closed loop. But there's a fly in the ointment; The governments provide rebates / credits that increase based on the battery size, so many cars have huge batteries that are barely utilized.
    b) Freeways are not designed for maximum flow. They are designed to be barely tolerable with the idea of discouraging long distance commuters. The freeway a thousand feet away from here has 10 lanes (and more in some areas) but an average speed of 20 mph from 7 am to 10 am on a week day. When the grid gets overtaxed, those charging stations are likely to find themselves throttled down to discourage single occupant commuters.
    c) The optimum charge rate will vary with the way that the cars are used. With the covid pandemic we've seen a huge drop in commuters as people work more locally or telecommute. More are able to charge at home during the week days.
    d) If battery buffers are needed to avoid overwhelming local grids, you have to remember that a battery buffer has to charge too. A 1 MWh battery buffer that discharges will then need to recharge and that will decrease the energy available for charging cars. Of course, you can pause the charging of the buffer, but that still means that you will charge the cars at a reduced rate.

    In short, politics and economics will drive part of the equation for charging stations. It's not just a matter of what makes the cars work most effectively.

    Dan
     
  16. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    OK, time to stop.
    I didn't state it well. Wrong in fact.

    And you are right, both cases requires much the same continuous 1 Megawatt of power capacity.

    What was your point again ?? :)
     
  17. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    You can charge the same number of cars in the same time with the same power feed, but *each* car charges in 1/3rd the time so *each* driver has to waste 2/3rds less time waiting for their car to charge. That's a MASSIVE advantage of fast charging.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    a) The US federal tax credit tops out at 16kWh. That is far from huge; it means EV ranges far under 100 miles. It would be great if people would buy an EV with a battery and range sized to their typical needs, as the cars would cost less, and make better use of resources, but they don't. They want the bigger battery for the what ifs. It's the same mentality that got people buying AWD.

    There are some pluses to a large, under utilized battery. It will compensate for the capacity loss the pack will see over the car's life. It can also fast charge more miles without excessive degradation.

    If battery utilization is a concern, PHEVs do the best at it. They require more consumer education. Then those with them tend to want more EV range after their first.

    b) The grid is already overtaxed in areas, and electric companies already throttle back A/C in homes when that happens. The grid needs an upgrade regardless of whether there are plug in cars or not.

    c) I think you meant time of charge instead of charge rate here. The daily schedule of most of the population means that their cars will be slow charging at night. That is when the grid is most under utilized, as air conditioning and such aren't running.

    d) This means needing to size the battery(or whatever) to peak usage times. It wouldn't be much different than designing a location battery system for peak shaving. A local refueling station sees the most traffic during rush hours, when there are more people on the roads. Size the battery bank for those peak usage times, and it can charge up in between them.

    Planning for interstate stations may be different, but these are sized for commercial trucks, so won't have the space limitations of a local station.
     
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  19. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

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    No, I meant rate of charge. We were discussing public charging stations and the optimum rate of charge.

    I agree with the first part. PHEVs can do a great job of making a small battery adequate. I don't agree so much with the second part. My brother is dumb as dirt and he had no problem driving my car once I taught him where the gear shift is and how it works. :) But maybe the education mentioned above has to do with selling the concept of a PHEV to a population where most people don't understand why they can't run their toaster and microwave on the same power strip.

    Dan
     
  20. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    There is no "optimum rate of charge". It depends on the car, the battery, the way the car is being used, the temperature, the duty cycle and the expected lifetime. Those things vary the "optimum rate of charge" enormously - more than a factor of 100.
     
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