Featured Solid State Battery 10 Minute Charge Toyota - Lets Go Places

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by orenji, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. dbstoo

    dbstoo Member

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    You and I are both exhibiting a common syndrome. Perceptions are colored by our investments in our cars.

    You see the SS batteries in light of the fast charging because that's a major need of the car you bought. You see any car that does not match the acceleration of your car as being defective and/or inadequate. In reality, faster charging is just one of several major advantages that the new technology brings. Does the average person who drives less than 25 miles a day need fast charging at home? Not if they recharge daily. Even a level 1 charger can handle that task readily overnight.

    I see the fast charging as a nice side effect, but the higher power density and long life are more attractive in my mind. I don't need the extra range, but that's seen as a problem by some folks. Swap the Prime's 250 lb battery for a similar sized SS unit and you'd still have the same weight and you gain a range that would (if I recall the figures correctly) be adequate for more than 99% of the commuters.

    Dan
     
  2. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    You say long life, but current solid-state batteries are significantly inferior in terms of operating life. And the most pesky thing, cost...
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I have no dog in this fight. I am just trying to show why Toyota and others would choose a BEV over a PHEV for testing and showing off the new batteries.
    1. It is easier to install and optimize the batteries in a straight EV than a power-split PHEV. Not only do you have to get the PHEV working properly in EV mode, but also in hybrid mode.
    2. A BEV can show off all of the batteries abilities. Faster charging in addition to improved range, weight reduction, etc.
    3. The batteries can undergo more rigorous testing in a BEV. A properly working PHEV will take load off the battery by using the engine to reduce strain to the battery. That could be disabled, but then that is additional work on top of the extra work of getting it working as a hybrid. Even then, the hybrid's motor(s) may not be powerful enough to drain the battery at its limits.
    4. In Toyota's case, they want to show that they could do a BEV that could compete with Tesla and VW.
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    fast charging is what Toyota is pushing on this. Its a reason they think they can sell more expensive batteries in 2025. I agree with you. v3 of the super chargers and my liquid electrolyte batteries are plenty fast. In a phev, ultra fast charging is not issue.

    For long life and low price liquid conditioned Lithium iron phosphate seem to be very solid. They are also is more energy dense than the air cooled packs in the Prius prime. Of course you need to add another liquid conditioning loop and software for the battery and Toyota doesn't seem to want to do that they want to wait for solid state.

    Solid state promises to be more reliable, cheaper, safer, smaller, and lighter for similar energy. Even toyota's partner on this panasonic doesn't think these are possible for automotive in the next 5 years. We know reliability and manufacturing costs are problems for solid state today and panasonic doesn't think those will be solved until around 2028 (not that long after toyota's 2025, but its not tomorrow). QuantumScape is the furthest along of public solid state companies that disclose their progress (they are in the process of raising more money and now are valued more than ford). QuantumScape's current battery is 400 wh/kg in the lab, which is not much more than Panasonics NCA which they say is 300 wh/kg in the lab and will be in tesla's in the next 5 years. Really no reason to push these things into phevs until technical challenges are worked out. toyota does have incentive to push them in BEVs. We don't even know if solid state will dominate. WSJ said that it seems like a sure thing now, but A123s tech seemed to be a sure thing too. They went bankrupt and technology got sold to the Chinese.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Can I get a solid-state cellphone or laptop battery?

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    Bob,

    You sarcastic side is showing. :)

    JeffD
     
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Dan, the detractors have it both ways at this Junction. Often we hear folks worry, "there might be 20% or more that have no place to charge!" .... or ..... "an EV only choice can't work for everyone! .... i got no plug outside"
    So, quick chargers, if fast enough, makes it the same as liquid non-renewable speed to refuel. Seems odd now to hear the statement turned against itself, namely," everybody doesn't need quick Chargers" .
    .
     
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  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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  9. dbstoo

    dbstoo Member

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    I think you have this out of context. I was speaking of which of the many benefits of SS batteries was most important to various user classes. For some it's weight. For some it's the size, others want the higher energy density. For some it's charge rate and still others will benefit from more efficient regenerative braking.

    But that's not a case for or against BEV, Hybrid or PHEV technology. :)

    Dan
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it's been over 3 weeks, how is this battery coming along?
     
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  11. Prius Maximus

    Prius Maximus Senior Member

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    not fast enough...
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Nio anounced yesterday the E17 (they are billing it as a competitor to tesla model S) will have a 150kwh solid state battery option next year. They also say it fits in the same space as their conventional 70 kwh and 100 kwh packs and should fit their battery swap model. Interesting possibilities here. A customer could buy a 70 kwh model and then pay for the 150 kwh battery to be swapped for a long trip.

    In 2 years we should be able to see if the toyota demo and nio product actually have advantages or are just marketing to get attention.
     
  13. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    If this has already been covered in this thread please excuse the repeat. I'm not gonna read through all 150 posts.

    A battery rated at 150 kwh theoretically will output one kw for 150 hours.......or 150 kw for one hour.
    Charging would be a similar amount of energy.

    So to charge it from "dead" in an hour would require a 150 kw source.
    That's about 3X what your whole house needs at max. usage. If I did the math right.
    To charge in 15 minutes, about a 450 kw source.
     
  14. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    That's all pretty much right (my 200A service to my house will theoretically provide 48kW, but close enough).

    To give you an idea of how much 450kW is, I was at a supercharger station in New Mexico, with I think 6 stalls. The main transformer that fed that station was maybe the size of two refrigerators and was rated at 300kVA (300kW at unity power factor). At 480V, 3-phase, 450kW requires something like 3 4-0 conductors (about the diameter of your fingers) *per phase*, depending on several factors (in conduit or not, temperature rating of insulation, etc.) to meet the National Electrical Code.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yes absolutely, but tesla v3 uses 250 kw, newer ccs chargers in europe and the us use 350 kw. We don't know the price to install the tesla chargers, but the ccs 350 kw chargers cost 200,000 euros to install (about $250K us) for 2 nozzles that can charge one car at that rate, or 2 cars combined. Porsche has a model that can use 270 kw, and kia says it has one that will be produced soon that can use the full 350 kw.

    My guess is toyota since they are focusing on 10 minute charges will likely use smaller batteries than nio. Maybe a 55 kwh pack that can charge 50 kwh (maybe 200 miles epa) in 10 minutes on a 350 kw charger. Nio really is using them for longer range, promising that they will give 600 miles (nedc which drastically over estimates range) making it about fitting that energy in a smaller space rather than outrunning a charging network. For sure future bevs will likely get higher powered chargers but those will be more expensive and won't cover a whole country.

    I doubt the 2022 nio or 2024 toyota using solid state will be affordable like a model 3 or bolt. That is for some time in the future. Still I hope these get built so we can see if it is future technology. Mercedes project one uses f1 designed lions and can charge extremely fast but these are much heavier and more expensive than the batteries in a tesla for similar energy. Solid state hopes are that they come in lighter and less expensive than future lion with liquid or polymer electrolyte some time in the future. My guess 10 years, but we should see some compelling products in the next 5 if that is to happen.
     
    #155 austingreen, Jan 14, 2021 at 2:21 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021 at 2:46 PM
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    NIO has a network of battery swapping stations, in addition to their fast charging one. These stations are already drawing a lot of power to charge the bakers' dozen of 70kWh and 100kWh pack mix they have right now. Adding some 150kWh ones probably isn't a big deal for the system. Charging a 150kWh pack in the car at its absolute fastest isn't something NIO needs to do.

    As for home charging, if you are draining a large pack car enough on a daily basis that home charging can't keep up, then a BEV probably not the right car for you.
     
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  17. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    It's really hard to get there. Even assuming only 12 hours, and a 32A charging station (you can get 40A, 48A and even 80A charging), that's still 7.6kW * 12 = 91.2kWh per night. Even if you assume a lousy 3.5 miles/kWh, that's still 319.2 miles a night. That's a heck of a lot of miles - well over 100,000 a year.

    You don't need fast charging if you're charging over night.

    This is why 600 mile range vehicles + tons of destination chargers (or even just NEMA 14-50 outlets) would be a way better solution than 300 mile range vehicles and a huge network of ultra-fast chargers. Sadly, batteries suck. Maybe the ones described in this thread will suck less.
     
  18. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    A Level 2 charger can do 50 amps at 240 volts or 12kW. So that will fill an empty 150 kwH battery in about 15 hours. Over night is typically about 12 hours. Since the battery will never be empty, most users will usually manage to fill it by the morning.

    JeffD
     
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  19. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Sure. But that is vastly different from the hype about 10 minute charging.
    :)
     
  20. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    10 minute charging isn't hype - it can be done. I own Lithium Ion (Lithium Polymer) batteries right now that can be charged from 0 to 100 in 12 minutes and 15 to 85% in well under 10 minutes, and I do have chargers that are capable of charging them that fast. The trade-off is that they have lower energy density than batteries like used on Teslas, which are high-energy low-power batteries. The advancement here is that you could have both higher energy density and higher power density than today's lithium ion batteries.
     
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