Someone bought five dollars in gas before I arrived

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 11 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]238025[/snapback]</div>

I'd say that includes administrators salaries as well. Maybe even the superintendent.

I live in San Diego, California. The average house here is somewhere around $750,000. I'm at the top of the salary schedule after a master's degree and more units beyond that, plus 30 years of teaching. My yearly salary is a little over $70,000. That means the average is way below that. I live in a house in not a great neighborhood. I bought it in the last 80s for $80,000. It's been appraised at $465,000. There is no way I could afford to buy my own house on my salary. I need a car for work, I haul to much of my own materials to and from school for public transportation. And couldn't carry the stuff to walk to and from the bus stop anyway. I buy a car once every ten years. I don't go out to eat. I don't go to the movies. Aside from professional conferences (which I call 'vacations') I take a small vacation about once every 10 years. I don't buy a lot of clothes or shoes. My hair is long so I don't go to the hairdresser every 6-8 weeks. Once a year to take care of the split ends. I shop at Costco. I have a freezer and a vacuum sealer so I can take advantage of wholesale packaging and family pack specials.

I can do plumbing, electrical and drywall. I can lay tile. I do my own gardening. I installed my own irrigation system with timers. I insulated my attic.

I have dial up rather than broadband because I can get dial up through the County Office of Education for $40 a year because I am a teacher.

I would say I live modestly. I do have cable TV and I own a dog who must be fed. I think I'm entitled to spend my money a dog and cable TV since I don't go to the movies, out to eat or take vacations.

I take classes to improve my job skills evenings, weekends and during summer breaks. I pay for them out of my own pocket.

I get just a little ticked off at people who think I'm lazy, stupid, or incompetant. I'd like to invite them to do my job for a few months and live on my salary during that time. I work in a Junior High. You'll just *love* the age group. They are so easy to work with.

Gas is $2.79 at the local gas station. But I haven't checked in a few days.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 11 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]238022[/snapback]</div>

It always kind of scares me when you and I agree, Squid.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Danny @ Apr 11 2006, 09:14 AM) [snapback]238063[/snapback]</div>

Danny, that's been the argument made against a minimum wage from the very start, and yet countries with a good minimum wage are far more prosperous than those without, and regions where strong unions have pushed up prevailing wages are more prosperous than regions where low wages prevail.

What actually happens with a high minimum wage, is that it narrows the gap between rich and poor. Prices will rise, and wages for skilled work will rise, but the working poor will end up with more real buying power than they had before. No argument can convince me that it's acceptable for a person who works full time to receive too little pay to afford food, housing, and medical care.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Danny @ Apr 11 2006, 01:14 PM) [snapback]238063[/snapback]</div>

True that!

But, I also agree with some elements of Daniel's argument, and will add in a dash of my own (of course!).

I suppose then maybe the idea should be to NOT focus on minimum wage, but rather increasing the standard of living across the board... In theory anyway... If the burger flipper can afford a decent apartment on his own, a used car, pay basic utility bills, AND still have some money left over to spend on whatever, that would not be TOO bad of a life... Although there is also a contingency, and I have no idea how big it might be, of those that need those jobs not because of IQ, but because of some flat out misfortune...

aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh

 

"If the burger flipper can afford a decent apartment on his own, a used car, pay basic utility bills, AND still have some money left over to spend on whatever, that would not be TOO bad of a life"

Such countries exist - and everyone has health care too - Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, for example.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Apr 12 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]238579[/snapback]</div>

And Canada and Germany.

The problem is that the burger flipper can't afford a decent apartment, used car, basic utilities on their own let alone have money left over. And they certainly can't do it if they have any family.

 

I've got $5 in gas a few times. I did it when I was low on gas but the nearest gas station was really expensive... I'd get as little gas as I could until I found a cheaper place to fill up at.

I also did it when I was younger and didn't have a credit card, and had almost run out of cash but needed gas immediately (and for some reason there was no ATM, I guess).

Price has nothing to do with it, and never will -- if it's too expensive for someone to fill a mere tank, they'd use public transportation or a bicycle.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 12 2006, 10:19 AM) [snapback]238603[/snapback]</div>

And when is it that “burger flipping†had become a career rather than something teenagers did for spending money? :huh:

If all jobs are to be paid at career levels, then I opt to go back to my high school and college summer job of lifeguarding.
[pause in effect: reminiscing with a huge grin on my face ]
I'll be a ski instructor and ski patrol in the winter too. :lol:

Yeah, life would be wonderful in Pollyannaville. :mellow:

Maybe I'll just abandon my American dream and move to France and join the rioters who were protesting a change in employment laws which may allow them to *Gasp* be fired!
No wonder France has high unemployment rates . . . they can't be fired????
Job security through unemployment! :huh:

 

It's unfortunate that for some burger flipping, or cashier, or maid or janitor *is* their career.

And it's not just teens. Plenty of seniors are going back to the work force in these minimum wage jobs because they have to eat too.

The Cost of Living goes up whether your income does or not. Think about that the next time your local government wants to put a "freeze" on the school budget for a few years. Cost of Living goes up....without extra income to make up the difference something has to be cut. At least the seniors can go back to work to make up the difference. It's not like schools can auction off the sports equipment on eBay to buy toilet paper.

 

All have good points.

But if Burger Flippers get say, $10/hr, someone has to pickup the tab. Instead of paying $5-$6 for a heart clogging meal to statisfy my need, I will probably pay $10-$12 to get that same meal. And then I will need to force my boss to bump my income to pay for the extra $5-$6 I have to pay for my burger (and everything else).

And next thing you know, my US dollar is worth 1 yen. :angry:

And as for other countries that have good social system, image paying more than half your income to prove the need.... I am okay paying that amount if politicans spend our money properly. Instead, I see them making laws to buy votes, either the poor(and blue collar workers) or the rich.... and middle class picks up all the bills... :angry:

If it was me, I want a flat tax and get rid of all the tax write off. That will get rid of the Army of IRS agents and save our country money in spending on our social system... assuming Politicans don't give it away to their friends.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 11 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]238074[/snapback]</div>

What I want to know is why you think anyone has said you are lazy, stupid, or incompetent?

I do not know, $70,000. If you bought your home for $80k provided you haven't refinanced extensively over the years your monthly outlay for that can't be too much, you should be able to live comfortably with that.

FWIW, as far as not being able to afford your own house, working with people buying and selling houses every day (I'm a real estate broker) I know how you feel. You could absolutely buy a $470,000 house with a $70,000 income though. You'd be stretching it, but its do-able. I just had a client (teacher) buy a $630,000 house with an income comparable to yours. Now, she has a lot down but the financed amount is about $470k. Not an issue.

 

i forget where this is, and if i manage to find it i'll post it here... but there is indeed a formula showing an inverse relationship between the amount of education you get and the amount of money you make.

obviously this excludes people who barely got through high school...

but it's good for a laugh.

 

I've seen that too, its only on the PhD front though, scholarly doctoral degrees. With professional degrees (MD, DDS, MBA etc) there's a large swing up in the income with each degree.

The academic degrees are famous for never even recouping the costs of getting them in the first place.

But, as in Godiva's case she chose to be a teacher. She could have gone to school the same amount of time (or less) and come out with an MBA and easily be making twice what she's making now. She might be miserable sure, but she'd have the bucks.

So, while I agree that teachers should be paid more because they provide such an important service, its not like all she could be was a teacher. She CHOSE to be a teacher.

 

yeah, it goes something like master's makes more money than phd makes more money than 1 postdoc makes more money than 2 postdocs...

if you figure in the years of low to even negative income it very well could be completely correct. :blink:

but you have to do what makes you happy... i could have headed off to a number of other programs and be done and making much more money but would i be happy? no. would godiva be happy doing something else? we can't answer that for her. but assuming that she is happiest in her current profession, you can't compensate for unhappiness in your job with money. well maybe some people can. most can't.

 

You're right, you can't replace happiness with money. If anything money makes unhappy people unhappier if it does anything.

BUT, by the same token if you've chosen a route of happiness over a route of money, then you can't complain about not making enough money

 

I'm not complaining about my salary. I make enough to pay my mortgage, bills, car loan and feed my dog and me. If I won the lottery, my lifestyle wouldn't change and I wouldn't quit my job. I would be able to pay off my house and car. And I would be able to buy books for the library and put a wireless system in the school and buy up to date computers and software. (We're still running classic 9 on 6 year old Mac clampshell iBooks.)

What I can't stand is people who make statements like...I'm in it for the money (greedy). That I babysit all day and get summers off (lazy and inaccurate: I don't get three months off for summer). That kids today can't read, do math, etc. and test scores are worse than they've ever been. (incompetant).

There are a LOT of factors going on in education. Money is only one of the factors. But I think a more significant factor is that laws governing (and restricting) schools are made by those that are not qualified in the education field. I.E. politicians. Just because you went to school doesn't make you qualified. Like you can write education policy because you stayed in a Holiday Inn. I would question exactly how many of those making the laws even went to a PUBLIC school.

My biggest beef is with the school board. The school board is an entirely outdated concept. Teachers are not graduates of the highest grade in the one room schoolhouse teaching until they get married and quit to raise a family. Maybe 100 years ago school boards were needed. But teachers today know more about education than the realtor, lawyer, housewife or car dealer serving on a school board. Why are amateurs telling teachers how to do their jobs?

I had my appendix out once. Should I be on the hospital board of directors telling doctors how to do their jobs? Should I serve on the AMA and make policy?

I guess it comes down to respect. I feel teachers aren't respected for their expertise in their chosen field.

**************
Now, to get back to some of the discussion that started this thread.

Today on the radio I heard some interesting statistics. The poorest 20% of the population (of California I believe, not the nation) pay 11% of their gross income in taxes of some sort. The wealthiest 1% only pay 7%. For the poor, the majority of those taxes are on goods like GAS, alcohol or tobacco. For the wealthiest the majority of those taxes are income taxes.

I think the increase in the price of gas, or the proposed increase in taxes on gas to encourage conservation will impact the poor a lot more than the rich. When the price of gas goes up they aren't just paying more for gas AND the tax added to it. They'll also pay more for everything from food to clothes to utilities. Because suppliers of those things will add on their extra expense to the cost of their goods.

I could only think...what would the implications be if the reverse were true. I don't think paying 11% of their gross income would significantly impact the quality of life or lifestyle of the wealthiest 1%. But...if the poorest 20% had 4% of their gross income back...what a difference it would make to them. Progressive tax was supposed to be an equilizer. It doesn't seem to work out that way. Would a flat tax be any better? I'm thinking...not to that bottom 20%.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 13 2006, 06:49 PM) [snapback]239447[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you, and it is a shame.

 

My thoughts on the comments of this thread
1) Teachers deserve every penny they can earn. Paying them less than people without college degrees is an insult.

2) We as a people take the 40 hour work week for granted. I just got home from a vacation in Jamaica. We ate lunch with one of the employees of the resort we were staying at, and started talking about the fact that it seemed she was always working. It seemed that way because she was. Their work day was 15 hours a day, 7 hours a week.

3) The mention of ciphoning reminded me of a funny incident the spring I graduated from college. My sister's Jeep was nearly impossible to put gas in. It would kick the auto fill pumps off every 10 seconds, and you never knew how much you actually got in it. It also would cut off if you let it get below about 3/4 full. So every 40 miles you had to get gas...and it would take forever.

She was driving from the evil school to Hokieville for my graduation, and called me that she was on I-81 and it had stopped on her again. We took it to several dealers, and several shops to no avail. Finally, she limped it home to our trusty mechanic, and he dropped the gas tank. There was a 6 inch piece of tube in the tank from someone trying to ciphon her tank. Now you can at least get gas into the tank of the guzzler.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Apr 13 2006, 11:37 AM) [snapback]239332[/snapback]</div>

Having money won't make you happy, but having no money sure will make you unhappy!

 

In the 50's if you had a half-way decent job a car cost you about 1/4 to 1/3 of your annual salary. A 'starter' home cost 1-2 times your annual salary. Now, well you know the numbers. The question is why?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(benighted @ Apr 10 2006, 05:53 PM) [snapback]237739[/snapback]</div>

Guess what? You are describing a European city-scape where gas has been well nigh unaffordable for decades.

I suppose we may get a chance to be Euro-chic, too.