Standardized per kWh quotes on this forum

Discussion in 'Prime Plug-in Charging' started by Marine Ray, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Here is another information relevant to electric rate hike in the New England deregulated states where I and @bisco lives.

    NEW ENGLAND
    Five of the 15 deregulated states are in the footprint of the New
    England RTO (known as ISO-New England). Table 3 shows that
    rates for all five states were already well above the national
    average in 1997. Over the 20-year period, all states except
    Maine experienced rate increases above the national average,
    while rates in Connecticut have increased at double the rate of
    the national average. Rates in these states declined between
    2008 and 2012, most likely due to steep drops in natural gas
    prices, as the New England region relies heavily on natural gas
    for generation. Rates began increasing in 2013, and have since
    generally followed trends in the national average.

    NE rates.png
     
  2. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    If I look at the map of states with (partially) deregulated electricity, they tend to be in higher cost of living areas. Perhaps there is a correlation.

    Just for a single point of comparison, both Texas and Massacheusetts are "unregulated" (actually neither is completely unregulated). Jan 2019 average residential cost per KWh in Mass is 22.57, in Texas it's just more than half of that - 11.51.

    EIA - Electricity Data
     
  3. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    I think this is a supply issue as well. What have any of these states done to increase their electrical production capacity? Any new plants? How many plants were closed?

    Between 1990 and 2017, total electrical generation in Mass declined by 19%. I don't think demand declined by the same amount. This is what is driving the wholesale prices.

    Over the same period, Texas increased their generation by 61%.

    XLS
     
    #23 jb in NE, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  4. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Your chart shows that over the period 1997 to 2017, electric cost in Mass increased by 55%. The increase in the nation as a whole was 54%.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    part of it is a lot of natural gas construction pipeline and conversion, and another part is continuous buyouts of the power companies
     
  6. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Regardless of the reason, if supply goes down and demand does not go down equally, the cost of the product goes up.
     
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  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    In my state, the legal definition of 'renewable' specifically excludes big legacy hydro, which is also our cheapest and most plentiful source. This creates incentive for producers to export it to states where it is labeled as renewable.

    Microhydro and some new larger construction can be labeled as renewable.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    we had a nice wind farm proposal, but that probably won't bring down costs
     
  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Good point. Still the promises of low cost electricity by free market competition never materialized. And yes supply issue is probably the bottleneck. I buy electricity from a provider touting 100% renewable sources for higher rate. I somehow think it is a marketing ploy, but without demand, I feel there is no way those alternative energy suppliers can survive in this tight market. :(
     
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  10. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Note that wind is a highly variable source, and the capacity factor for a tower is rarely more than 25%. You're paying for 10 MW, but you only get the equivalent of 2.5. So, it doesn't contribute to a reliable baseload capacity. For comparison purposes, nuclear plants can have a capacity factor of close to 96%.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    regardless, i'd rather have more wind and solar, then the threat of nuculer
     
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  12. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    At any given time, you power is coming from a variety of sources. So, in the middle of the night, when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining, you are getting your power from coal, gas or nuclear, and perhaps a bit of landfill gas.

    The baseload capacity has to come from somewhere. It won't be either wind or solar, so that leaves you with gas or coal in your area. Both produce carbon emissions, where nuclear does not. Pick your poison.
     
  13. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    ditto
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    probably gas
     
  15. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Yeah, I know. There is no way to trace the electrons to where it was produced once flowing in the grid. Still, until I build my tiny house completely off grid and self sufficient for it's energy needs, I am willing to pay into a system to support those alternative energy source producers.
     
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  16. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    In Mass, is it cheaper to run a Prime on electric from the wall or with gas from the pump?
     
  17. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Which you were unable to do in the regulated environment...
     
  18. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Maybe true? In regulated states like yours, isn't there some kind of state program that allows consumers to pitch into the alternative energy sources?
     
  19. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Most higher rate NE household with the electric rate above 20c/kWh, gas is cheaper, as long as one can get gas below $3/gal. I am probably a very rare individual who rejoice when seeing gas price goes up on the roadside signs.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i don't know how much more efficient prime is. with the pip, i figure 60mpg and 15 miles per charge.

    gas is anywhere from $2.50 to $3.00 and charging is around 90 cents x 4 = $3.60
     
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