Start-Stop study claims soon to be universal

I don't think every feature needs to save money. This is part of the poor reasoning about hybrids being expensive. One of the good features is no iddling at stop lights. I consider this feature a luxury feature in my prius. Now the prius also includes smart key, also a luxury featere, but one that costs money but doesn't save one drop of gas, but some people like it, personally I don't care. I don't think people are going to be pulling out calculators to worry that a $300 option only saves $200 worth of gas if prices don't go up. If they want the ice to turn off they will pay, otherwise they won't.

 

Why am I smelling the stink of GM Green wash - ah la Chevy Malibu hybrid. Slap a metal logo on the back of the car, jack up the price, give it start stop, and call it a hybrid.

Or maybe others already forgot how fast it's start/stop design came & went. There was a thread on it:
Is Chevy Malibu Even a 'Hybrid'? | PriusChat
The consensus was that it's not a hybrid unless more than one power source can propel the ride down the road. The OP's article came from bombed out / bankrupt Detroit. Ready to resell a bad idea as new & good. There you go. Nothing learned from history.
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It may not be perceived as a hybrid, but GM's eAssist is more than a start/stop system. It went away in the Malibu because GM was able to hit their target MPG for the car without its cost. If/when they can no longer do so with DI, turbo, start/stop, etc. it will return.

 

2014 Chevrolet Malibu: Mainstreaming Stop/Start Technology
start stop is now standard.
Chevrolet Malibu eAssist Hybrid Going Away for 2014, Could Return – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

In other word anything more than gm's start stop was a rounding error on mpg.
Compare Side-by-Side

 

I didn't realize the eAssist was already using DI. I wonder how the two will work out in the real world then. Will the larger battery in the eAssist allow for larger gains there?

 

According to that car and driver blog, the base mailibu now has start stop and di for 2014, getting the same sticker mpg as eassist. The blog also said it had variable lift like the new mazda system and fiat system. The 2014 accord also got di, and I expect camry and fusion, will follow in their next generation. GM is just fufilling orders for eassist that didn't want to be switched to the normal malibu, it appears to be dead for now.
2014 Chevrolet Malibu: Mainstreaming Stop/Start Technology

GM's start/stop is different from ford's system, as it has 2 12V batteries.

That same blog seemed to say they were reworking e-assist. Perhaps part of the problem is they need a higher capacity battery to get better mpg than the start stop system. JCI, gm's battery supplier, has targetted these designs with a micro-hybrid battery. They put a 48 V Lithium battery and a 12V lead acid battery, in a single battery case.
Johnson Controls Sees Opportunity in Low-Cost Hybrids | Suppliers content from WardsAutoMicro

To be fully effective electronic air conditioning, needs to be incorporated (otherwise it can't shut the engine down when its hot). This was first incorporated in the gen II prius IIRC, and prices should continue to come down as more cars use it. I have no idea what the price premium of electric AC (versus belt driven) + micro-hybrid battery + heavier duty starter will be in 2018, but its likely not to be too bad. I would expect the hybrid premium to also be reduced by then, with less expenive electric ac and lithium traction batteries. With cheap gas (< $5 (2013 inflation adjusted) we may see many of these start stop systems. If gas gets more expensive we will see more hybrid sales.

 

I was looking at one of the new start/stop Malibus the other day. It has a big 900CCA battery under the hood and a small 115CCA battery in the left hand corner of the trunk.

 

When I first heard about eAssist being dropped, I thought it was still using a port injected engine. That the new Malibu got gains to equal the eAsisst, not just start/stop, but also from having a more advanced, DI engine. Checking the the 2013 eAsisst on fueleconomy.gov shows that it had DI already. So a large part of the eAsisst's advantage over the old standard one was a more advanced engine to begin with.

GM seems to realize that for these systems to work out long term that it will take more that just upgrading the starter battery. When FASing at long lights, I'll engage the parking brake. The brake lights on drop the system voltage by 1 to 2 tenths of a volt otherwise. I generally don't bother FASing at night with the headlights on because of their drain.

I have looked into installing a second battery in the past. A deep cycle one, which the small one in the 2014's trunk likely is. Perhaps pulling the parts off a totaled Malibu in a year or two, or just from GM, will be cheaper than what is available now.

Of course, once you start going beyond the single starter battery, the electric AC, electric water and oil pumps, regen braking, etc. become more feasible for a non- hybrid car. I don't follow BMW, but doesn't efficient dynamic models use regen braking and electric AC. Perhaps just overseas, or was it just on concept models?

 

I didn't know that but it makes sense. The start-stop also should help the standard malibu in th real world.

Now I don't follow gm well, but this two batteries in two separate packages seems like a kludge. Ford and most european manufacturers use advanced lead acid batteries (AGM is most popular) in their start stop systems. This may be more expensive than 2 when initially manufactured, but the user only has one battery to replace. I think mercedes was the company behind the micro-hybrid lithuium + lead acid in a single package, but it will be available to all manufacturers, and I'm sure GMs needs are part of the design of the new package.

BMW IIRC only does this on their hybrids and plug-ins, but I would expect they make it soon to more of their cars as the price drops.

 

AGM isn't exactly new tech, and 12-volt battery type something typically posted under specifications of a car's product page. GM's batteries very well may be AGM. It is known standard flooded batteries don't stand up to start/stop uses over time. With their experience with the BAS/eAsissit, plus Opel's likely experience with start/stop, I don't see GM kludging this.

I just worry that a single battery system can have the battery degrade fast enough to reduce start/stop cycles, but still have charge to be declared good for warranty work. Thus nothing more than something for CAFE points with no real world benefit.

 

The smart move for most manufacturers is to simply offer a 'sliding scale' of multiple versions of a particular model that go all the way from full hybrid (or even plug-in or EV) all the way down, to hybrid, mild hybrid, and micro hybrid or some iteration/combination.
That, I feel, is kind of what Ford did with the Fusion. Let consumers then decide what the 'payback' is based on the gas prices at that time. Better to have all the models available than to have the consumer leave the lot for another dealer (or desperately ramping up/down production when gas prices go up/down).
I'm not too familiar with the technical details, but obviously the manufacturing and cost issues are greatly improved the easier you can bolt/tack on a particular part (or remove it) as you go from micro all the way to full EV, maybe even on the same assembly line with minimal changes to the rest of the vehicle.

Ya, glad you mentioned this, I was just about to bring up MB's S400 Hybrid.
Mercedes-Benz details the S400 BlueHybrid, coming next summer 29.8 mpg combined
from the article:
"A milestone on the road to electrification
The centrepiece of the modular, very compact and highly efficient hybrid drive system is the new high-voltage lithium-ion battery, which was specially developed for automotive use and is the first such unit worldwide to be introduced in a series-production vehicle. In this way Mercedes-Benz is making a trailblazing contribution to the electrification of the car, with the S-Class once again playing the role of the technological trendsetter.
Major advantages over conventional nickel/metal hydride batteries include a higher energy density and better electrical efficiency, together with more compact dimensions and a lower weight. Thanks to space-saving installation in the engine compartment, where it replaces the conventional starter battery, the generous interior space and boot capacity of the S 400 remain unchanged. The lithium-ion battery not only stores energy for the electric motor, but is also connected to the 12-Volt onboard network via the transformer to supply power to other standard consumers such as the headlamps and comfort features. The completely newly designed battery system consists of the cell block with its lithium-ion cells and the cell monitoring system, the battery management function, the high-strength housing, the cooling gel, the cooling plate, the coolant feed and the high-voltage connector."

 

No, I didn't mean to argue that AGM is new, but I don't see why you would need a second battery if you were using AGM or anouther type of advanced lead acid. AGM is more expensive, corrected: the malibu does use AGM. Maybe the reason for 2 is they simply replaced the lithium battery from eAssist with a lead acid .

To me its a kludge to use 2 parts that will need to be replaced by the customer instead of 1, but others are fine to disagree. As mentioned I have no really good knowledge of gm. I am impressed by many of the design decissions on the volt, but not the malibu. I do like that gm put a more efficient engine and includes start stop with the 2014.

If the waranty is the same as my prius's than its 3 years. Its likely the battery is made to work at least 4.5 years with the system, so I wouldn't be worried it would not last past waranty, but it is meant to be replaced during normal use. The supplier also sells longer lasting more expensive batteries for replacement.

 

This article makes me want to cynically say, "A 5% improvement in vehicle efficiency!!?"
Yeah, that'll save us from Climate Change and Peak Oil!
I'm going to try and not be so cynical though....I do realize every bit helps. In particular, a small mpg improvement on fuel-thirsty vehicles that sell in large #'s (see: Why Green Car Reports Writes About Full-Size Pickup Trucks) will do far more to reduce collective fuel consumption then making low-selling, already efficient cars into EVs (e.g. Smart ForTwo ED, etc.)

I hate to say it as a Prius driver, but a big reason for this has to do with the Prius. It has forever been ingrained into people's mind that (hybrid = car lacking driving dynamics that is "saving the planet").
Not sure if we can ever get people to start thinking about reducing foreign oil use. As far as the word "hybrid", well technical terms and marketing can often mean two very different things, as we've seen with wireless carrier's "4G" service.
We've seen: Belt-Alternator Starter, I-eLoop, E-assist, EREV, KERS, start/stop, etc. etc.

Makes me wish I had more $$$$......boy, I'd love to see the look on a hybrid hater's face when I pull up in my Porsche 918/LaFerrari/McLaren P1/new NSX and say......"Yep......she's a hybrid! Still saying you would never drive one? Well, don't worry - you couldn't afford one even if you did"

 

The batteries in the start/stop Malibu are the AGM type.

 

For some reason the fact the big American automakers are going to normalize start/stop engine design just brings new meaning to this piece of artwork.

 

LOL....for some reason seeing that reminded me that a big reason for the (late) push for hybridization in EU has to do with the ICE not being allowed to be used in city centers as of a certain date (Hence the 'charge hold' function on the Volt/Ampera, etc.)

Off topic, but I'm just wondering how that would be enforced? I mean how is a traffic cop -or whoever- supposed to tell that a particular car stuck in traffic has its ICE on? And with the Start/Stop system it goes off the minute you stop.....
I am envisioning a cop on a Segway holding some sort of device that looks like this (but for detecting emissions, not gold coins!) trying to catch a start/stop car that just pulled away from traffic:


LOL.....my imagination is too much......and those silly, silly EU regs!

 

Perhaps something looking like the Ghost Busters PKE meter?



While this is trying to be a little funny, there is also scary government activity at the same time. They have begun thinking about this type of monitoring / auto ticketing like red light cameras.

Road Side Auto check points.

 

LOL......that's good to know! Hey, that system only works on moving cars, but I'm sure it could be modified to work on stopped cars....and while we're at it -and wanting to keep it totally automated- why don't we use some of the drones (mentioned in Ford to unveil solar hybrid concept car at CES | PriusChat) to do the monitoring?

I am sure that remote emissions monitoring + drones + ICE control is just the trifecta Austingreen was waiting for!
LOL.....he's going to need to to shop for a mobile SAM system as an accessory on his next car

 

I say the replacement rate needs to be considered, along with gas saved. A deep cycle AGM for running electronics during off periods should last longer than a starter type battery. If it also allows the car to perform more auto stops during the life of the starter battery, while possibly extending its life, then the fuel savings could over shadow the replacement cost to replace the two batteries.

In previous threads on start/stop systems, European members brought up reports of the batteries degrading quickly. The system would simply stop auto stopping in a short time from a weaken battery. Sometimes requiring battery replacement in a year. I found such reports about the Kia systems independently. Perhaps underpowered batteries and alternators for the system were being used for whatever reason. Maybe the ones coming to NA have the bugs ironed out.

I hope they all work out, and not just become the next flex fuel CAFE loop hole.

 

There has to be some sort of bypass mechanism Incorporated when the battery gets low - just like the ICE forced to be turning on in a Prius when the traction battery gets low. The 405fwy next to LAX ... during many week days you can easily stop/start every 50' for 7 miles - each north/south side of the airport. 90 minutes of driving like that (electric AC & brake assist?) to work each day has to be brutal on a starter and its battery. I'd be curious to know how many stop/starts per day it's designed to endure, and still reach the end of warranty.
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