Stiffening plate question

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Aug 31 2006, 03:29 AM) [snapback]312043[/snapback]</div>

My exact feelings about this issue, couldn't say it better.

 

I just wish I had somebody nearby who could secretly swap out my plate when I wasn't looking, and see if I could notice it. Unfortunately that isn't easy. Seems like it would be easy for others to do who might have two handy people in the household.

As for my wife wanting to please me... you'll have to try again, Bill!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Aug 31 2006, 10:31 AM) [snapback]312252[/snapback]</div>

I only mentioned that as a possibility. I'm sure there's no pleasing you...

 

How this elepant-in-the-room question: what kind of plate does the Japanese 2003 G Touring Selection, the newer European 2006? Touring version, and the latest 2007 US Touring Edition have with their sports-tuned suspension?

Toyota would have carte blanche here to grab low-hanging fruit and anything else mostly necessary for tuning. As I understand it, only the suspension and sway bars are different from stock besides 16" wheels and a bigger spoiler.

We could take a cue from Toyota of what minimal tuning with fluff is.

 

Sighz, this thread was more lively and fun that i had thought when i looked at the topic header...

Well, I have to admit i've been on the fence, for me the real halt on the tech plate (although it came highly recommended from PC posters) was the article/write up that i found about it from Darrell's website.

My experience with handling improvements came from swapping my tire/rim combo (which is much heavier than stock) (see sig).
Positives: Day and Night improvement in handling. Car feels like it sticks to the road. Greatly reduced 'leaning' when corners are taken at speed. Overall Plus to handling.
Negatives: Definitely feel that my 'wheels' are heavier. MPG hit. Harder to go into 'Stealth'/glide/no arrows mode

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Sep 1 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]312923[/snapback]</div>

If someone knows how to read Japanese, here's the website http://toyota.jp/prius/grade/touring/

Can't really see anything here,

 

I really love darrelldd. I love his LEDs. I love his passion for EVs and his sense of humor about his "gas guzzler." But I really wish people wouldn't take darrelldd's "test" of the BT plate as scientific proof that the plate doesn't work.

It is a fun read. It's an interesting story, and it captures darrelldd's thoughts very well. But it is just one more opinion, just the same as all the "seat of the pants" opinions that the dissenters so quickly and loudly dismiss.

It is even worse than a SOTP opinion inasmuch as we don't know anything about the actual opinion giver -- Mrs. darrelldd. Does she try to be supportive of hubby's efforts? Or is she ruthlessly critical and objective? Does she usually notice car handling or is she typically oblivious? It is interesting that darrelldd told her a white lie in each of the two tests -- he mislead Mrs. darrelldd to set her expectations. In both cases she "agreed" with darrelldd and supported his claim of what was done to the car.

This is held up by others as the "scientific evidence" that surpasses all other claims about the BT plate. This is why Green Speed and others won't even try the plate -- because they've seen on darrelldd's site that it doesn't work according to his blind test.

Again, this is not a slam on darrelldd He wrote about his process and his thoughts on the plate. He provided a complete record of his experiment which lead to his conclusions. Because of this, others can read the account and come to a different conclusion. And he has never chastised anyone for believing differently.

But sadly, many have taken his web page and turned it into "scientific evidence that the plate doesn't work". After every single positive post about the BT plate, someone has to chime in with the "proof" on darrelldd's site.

So I give up. Let the dissenters have the last word. I won't haunt the BT threads anymore. I know it's a great product, and many will choose (wrongly, IMO) to believe the dissenters instead of trying it for themselves. But it's not my battle.

And I still love darrelldd.

 

The European Prius has the same flimsy factory plate.
The BT plate was an improvement on my car.

 

I work for Cadillac and General Motors uses these too....However it is not a suspension part at all. General Motors calls it a floor brace and a seat brace depending on the application. It is designed to keep the floor pan from "oil canning" on uni-body cars under certain conditions. The part you guys keep mulling over bolts into sheet metal which can be torn out with your bare hands and a rachet if you tighten it too much!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 2 2006, 07:09 PM) [snapback]313245[/snapback]</div>

At last, a plausible explanation

Here is part of what I posted last week on Priusonline.com

"...The points of attachment to frame ostensibly negate the full utility of the added width (unless one can argue that the modified plate aids in supporting a more robust/rotund passenger)...."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 2 2006, 07:09 PM) [snapback]313245[/snapback]</div>

I've been considering the BT plate, but of all the negative posts about it this is the one that caught my attention and is making me hesitate about ordering it. If the part to which it fastens really is nothing but sheet metal, I'm not so sure the replacement part makes sense. I was going to try changing out the tires for increased stability first anyway, so now I'm even more inclined to try that and then see how the car feels. The main thing I don't like about the Prius is that it feels like a "small" car, even though it isn't really - the only other car I've ever driven that had the tendency to wander and not hold straight in the wind was a Ford Escort many years ago.

I had made up my mind to get the BT part, but now I'm really concerned about it - not about whether it helps, because too many people relate that it does - but about the logic of putting a heavier, more substantial part underneath if it's just screwed into sheet metal.

Can anybody help me figure this out, or is there another thread that has addressed the issue of the plate and the sheet metal?

 

Bob, I can assure you that our stiffening plate is NOT being fastened to a flimsy piece of sheet metal. For you to make this comment it is clear that you have never been under your car to see the attachment points to where our plate goes. The attachment point for our stiffening plate is the main unibody frame rails that form the backbone of the chassis.

If you have been under the car and you still make this statement I would not advertise that you work for GM in any engineering capacity too loudly as this would explain a lot about GM and its subsidiaries losing a tremendous amount of market share.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 2 2006, 07:09 PM) [snapback]313245[/snapback]</div>

P-car, the majority of "negative" comments that you are referring to are people that have never seen or tried our stiffening plate.

As far as the attachment points being weak this is certainly NOT the case.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(P-car @ Sep 3 2006, 08:47 PM) [snapback]313718[/snapback]</div>

 

jbarnhart, I never considered darrelldd's test as a scientific test. It is a test that shows how perception can change one's feeling on the BT plate. For now, I do not know if the BT plate will work or not because lack of objective data and scientific tests. I am not saying it does not, I just don't know.

If the BT plate really works on improving the performance of the car, here is one of my major concerns. We all know the "flimsy" OEM plate can be twisted by hand. Now my concern is, did Toyota put the flimsy plate there for a purpose such that the whole car will flex as a whole? Large buildings like skyscrapers and tall bridges are built such that the whole structure will flex as wind blows on it. I know I am not comparing apples to apples, I am just giving an example that something is built the way it is for a purpose. We, as drivers and armatures, don't have the money and knowledge to perform any structural test on the car with OEM plate and the BT plate. The BT plate is several thousand times harder to twist compare to the OEM plate (from reading other threads), so the BT plate will prevent some part of the car from flexing. Will this create stress points on other parts of the car? We don't know.

Again, I am not saying the plate won't work. I just have questions and concerns. My mind's open, educate me.

 

Claudia thank you for your interest in our BT Tech stiffening plate. I can assure you that we are NOT attaching our plate to a piece of sheet metal. If this was the case do you really think that after all this time of having our product on the market and shipping it all over the world we would still be selling it?

I have designed this part for my own personal car at first to improve the Prius' ride and handling and it made such an effect on it I decided to offer it to Prius owners through Prius Chat. I am not getting rich selling this part and if you read through the numerous posts on this subject you would see that the vast majority experience the improvements that our stiffening plate makes.

Every so often we get these self proclaimed "experts" that question the validity and the science behind our product without even seeing or trying one themselves. When you make your decision on whether to get one or not please keep all of this in mind before making your decision.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Claudia @ Sep 4 2006, 11:20 AM) [snapback]313981[/snapback]</div>

 

Just because the factory doesnt install and "upgraded" part doesnt mean you cannot benifit from it. I modify ALL my cars and in nearly all cases I see an improvement.

Why did Toyota use those crappy tires?

A lot of times it comes down to cost. Every nut and bolt adds to the total cost of the vehicle so the difference between a $5 part and a $50 part on 100,000 cars adds up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Sep 4 2006, 01:23 PM) [snapback]314041[/snapback]</div>

BT you are both a liar and miss leading all these people. I HAVE install two of your plates. TELL THE TRUTH GUY THEY BOLT TO A TIN FLOOR PAN...No if and or buts. It's NOT a suspension part. It installs to a minor hump in the floor pan to accomodate the exhaust. There are a few threads here about people stripping and ripping this section of the floor because it's a flimsy piece of tin. GM calls it a floor brace because that's ALL it is. Taking a poke at GM because I looked a part up in a parts book it unnescesary. There is no real structural integrity to speak of at this point. Wake up fella main uni body frame rails are what the trailing arms bolt to.

 

BobZ I really think that you owe me and this forum an appology for making such liberous statements AND attacking my integrity on this forum.

There has been NOT ONE report of ANYONE "ripping out the floor" as you put it. There has been a few cases of people over torqeing the stainless bolts and breaking them that we have replaced at no charge but that has been it.

My comments about GM still stands however...


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BobZ @ Sep 4 2006, 02:15 PM) [snapback]314064[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Sep 4 2006, 02:13 PM) [snapback]314061[/snapback]</div>

Very true about the cost. The crappy tires are different from structural integratity issue tho. Ok, gotta get back to watch the US Open. Later fellas~!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Sep 1 2006, 11:20 PM) [snapback]312958[/snapback]</div>

I don't see it as proof that the brace doesn't work. I see it as evidence that people will perceive things differently. Just because someone doesn't notice the change like you do doesn't necessarily mean that there is no change. People are different, some may even find a greater change than you do, some the same and still others less. I agree we don't know much about Darell's wife (we cannot assume she is observant or not), but in post #22 he states As for my wife wanting to please me... you'll have to try again, Bill! She could've said, "Nope, it's fine to me," or "You're wrong." As for the "white lies"....isn't that what a placebo test is all about? The only blind test I could see would be to borrow a car, wrap paper around the brace and give it back. Borrow the car again in a week. At the end of the second week ask, "Which week felt better driving?" The owner doesn't know which week had the BT brace as it was covered all the time. Do that to a lot of people to see an average.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Claudia @ Sep 4 2006, 08:20 AM) [snapback]313981[/snapback]</div>

I have never seen a post about it being attached to sheet metal. If you look at Darell's site, you can see where it's attached. If it were attaching to just sheet metal, what would be the point of Toyota attaching their brace there?

After a lot of thought I've come to the conclusion that the brace is a solution to a problem, whether or not you have the problem is up to you. I doubt that looking at chart with numbers would prove to me whether it would work or not, that's like accepting the EPA mileage numbers at face value. Unfortunately it'll be up to you to decide. I'm not your age or weight. I don't have the same driving history or the same commute as you do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Sep 4 2006, 02:26 PM) [snapback]314070[/snapback]</div>

You throw your digs at me youur gonna get them right back Brian. I like the way you blow smoke with your over torquing remark. You can strip this out with a mere twist of a wrist and you want that this part to be concidered a major suspension upgrade?! That's right wrist pressure. ANYONE can easily get under there just slightly over zealous and wind up with a problem on there hands! Placebo at best. You said and I quote "The attachment point for our stiffening plate is the main unibody frame rails that form the backbone of the chassis." That's pure B.S. The frame "RAILS" are all the way out by the rocker panels. This is available for all to see on www.toyota.com THAT'S RIGHT for ALL TO SEE. Find Prius click the 360 degree click "SUPERVIEW" you can drag and drop and turn the Prius upsidedown and see it for yourself. Clearly your floor brace bolts to the floor pan NOT the frame rails!!!

Need more? Go to Darell's site

http://www.evnut.com/prius_stiffening_plate.htm

Take a look at pictures #3 and #5...these pictures clearly show seam sealer just inches from where this brace mounts. Last time I checked they don't use seam sealer on "Main unibody frame rails" Seam sealer is used on body panels such as (That's right folks you guessed it) SHEET METAL and FLOOR PANS

Still need more? Here is Brian's photo of his plate bolted to the floor pan. It is painted white like the rest of the car.

Still need more?? Go to the PDF file at the bottom. Here it is from the TOYOTA parts manual. FLOOR PANEL BRACE lumped in with an exhaust illustration. Like I said. It is NOT a suspension part AT ALL. Case closed!