Suitable substitutes for the Toyota ATF-WS transmission or transaxle fluid?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Rocketboy235, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Okayyyy, Where did you get that idea????

     
  2. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    Magnusson Moss

    From Wiki:

    Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty.[7] This is commonly referred to as the "tie-in sales" provisions[8] and is frequently mentioned in the context of third-party computer parts, such as memory and hard drives.

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  3. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

    From:

    15 U.S. Code § 2302 - Rules governing contents of warranties | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
     
  4. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Hogwash. Gotta do better than wiki wachie......
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Huh. So you don't think that citing the actual language from the US Code is any better than wiki wachie?
     
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  6. Mdv55

    Mdv55 Active Member

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    I wanted a better fluid than WS :D
     
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  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I can see an automotive manufacturer needing a very proprietary fluid, and I think the Prius transaxle is a good example. So first they develop it, and then they're forced to publish the formulation. And until someone else mixes up a batch, they've got to give it away?

    Not even gonna respond to that lol. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    Ah woops...

    I better get outa here, stirred up the ant farm lots. :)

     
  8. Mdv55

    Mdv55 Active Member

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    Not sure if WS was developed specifically for the Prius or as part of a transition to lower viscosity and more stable ATFs in general. GM introduced the Dexron VI spec a few years later as well.

    I'd also note that nowhere does Toyota specifically require WS be used. They just say damage may result and they leave the door open as to whether or not this would be a warranty issue.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Only if they want to make it a condition of honoring the warranty.

    Canada might not have the same law, but jzchen cited the relevant passage from the US one in #403.

    I see the quote does break off just before covering the reasons the (Federal Trade) Commission can waive the requirement.

    Of course, the missing part says:

    But if a manufacturer wants to go that route, their spiel has to be published in the Federal Register and open to public comment.
     
    #409 ChapmanF, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  10. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    I had trouble the first time I tried copying and pasting so I just did a minimum paragraph. Thanks @ChapmanF for help posting the rest...

    The first stipulation implies Toyota test competitor products and shows that they fail to provide the same service as WS.

    The 2nd one, well, pretty hard to get around the first one, don't know how having a monopoly on WS would ever be beneficial to the consumer...

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  11. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    You have a 2011, so warranty doesn't play here.

    As for the "better" part....it doesn't matter if the WS fluid is "better" for transmissions or it isn't, because your 2011 doesn't have one. It diesn't have a "transaxle" either, although many (including myself) CALL it that because it's somewhat functionally correct.

    The things that you really need to worry about are the motor/generator windings and wiring, which may be degraded if you put funky fluids from the "Marvel Mystery Oil" section of your local parts house.
    If you really insist on going down this road, then presume that we're all Toyota shills (which I find to be hilarious since I haven't owned a Toyota in almost 3 decades) and go forth and do good things with your car.

    Go to the University of the You Tubes and watch some vids on how the power-split device in the G3 is constructed and what "better" means to you in the lube department.

    Then?
    You can enlighten our community of drivers with the information that you find.

    Who knows?
    There probably IS a "Better" fluid out there, but you're going to have to convince, or at least INFORM me of what characteristic for this new fluid is better than the OEM stuff.


    Best of luck!
    You have a 2011.....you may NEED it...;)
     
  12. Mdv55

    Mdv55 Active Member

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    Since there is no way of knowing if there is a better fluid for the windings, or if that even really matters outside this forum in all reality all I can say is this...

    Better to me means a fluid that is more Group IV and Group V based then WS which appears to be a Group 3 base according to the oil nerds. WS seems to shear and doesn't hold up as well as other premium ATFs according to analysis results.

    The Prius doesn't have the same duty cycle as those transmissions, however it doesn't just sit there and cool everything. It's compressed, sheared and dumped onto hot components. A "better" fluid is beneficial in a Prius transmission as well.

    The videos you're referencing do a great job of explaining just how the lube moves around the transmission case and what it does. Why I would want a better fluid shouldn't really be a surprise. I have no interest in "converting" anyone. They can do as they wish with their cars. I can only provide an opinion based on my experience they can either choose to ponder more or disregard as they see fit.

    Yes, my car is out of warranty and I'm on the hook if anything happens to it. That said, the car has had the factory fill in it for just over 42k miles and a different fluid then Toyota WS in it for almost 100k miles now. Knock on wood, the car has been fine and just keeps soldiering on.

    I use the same brand in the transmission that I use in the engine. The current engine oil has just over 13k on it and the car hasn't burned a drop as far as I can tell. So yeah, I'm gonna go and say it's a better fluid then the minimum Toyota is saying they want to get the vehicle out of warranty and keep the average owner happy with it's lifespan before they sell you a new one.

    The OEM isn't interested in anyone getting maximum life out of their vehicles. It's always boggled my mind how so many don't understand that and think what they say should be taken as gospel.
     
    #412 Mdv55, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Everybody likes company in their endeavours, but responsible “pioneers” will caution others, that their method is unproven.
     
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  14. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    WALMART 10W 40
     
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  15. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Oh....I understand COMPLETELY.

    Before I adopted "The OTHER One Percenter....." as a member descriptor I used "Resident Skeptic."

    Few people in this forum would confuse me with being a shill for the company, and I abhor Toyota of North America's cooperate climate, and their hands-off policy when it comes to reigning in their dealerships' excesses.

    There's a lot of people who are not familiar with all of the baseball statistics arguments concerning stator winding insulation properties, oil sheer stability, or even viscosity, and there's little likelihood that any of them ever work their way through 21 pages of arguments about the differences between six and 0.500 dozen.
    HOWEVER (comma!)
    In case we get a 'leaker' I think it's important to point out that where transaxles[sic] are concerned, you're statistically guaranteed to go a quarter million miles ++ if you use the OEM fluid in this case and ignore the "lifetime" rating, and go with semi-occasional fluid replacement.

    The consensus in this forum seems to be that the OEM fluid should be replaced initially at 30K miles or equivalent clicks, and thereafter about every 60-70k miles. If you discover a 'superior' substitute (as apparently you have) that doesn't degrade the electrical components then that's even better.
    Adjust your periodicities accordingly.

    If an owner goes off the reservation and uses something that's a better lubricant but dissolves motor winding insulation, wrecks electrical sensors, then that's a "them" problem and not a dealer or an OEM thing.
    Just about the only other fluid that I would not "experiment" with would be the inverter coolant.
    Other than that?
    Experiment away!!!

    As indicated elsewhere in the forum and probably in this thread.....there are a LOT more issues with the 'turd' gen than transaxle lubrication and M/G failures.
    Most people with 150,000 miles on a G3 are a lot more worried about the head gasket than the transaxle.
     
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  16. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    This is what I ran for 28,500 miles 3/1 6916aa8a-ac00-4d71-b5f8-850459495d81.68238b1e806be28037bd753a9ceb5c3c.jpeg 01_pure_synth_oil_stabilizer_group.jpg
     
  17. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Using better oil would be a lot less.... but it's your money and car....
     
  18. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    Trani had a loud whine and metal shavings when I changed the original fluid.
    It was much quieter with the 10w 40 and lucas........tried the ws a couple of times before the 10w 40......
    Now have Valvoline and noise is much better. 283,000
    Used engine and trani or selling as in the near future. Clunker still getting 45 mpg.
    61A4niTW6RL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
     
    #418 Tim Jones, Oct 16, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  19. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    rrriiigghhttt
     
  20. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    Fair enough. I don't know what it is that is dissolving, and it isn't fair that I choose whatever I want for argument's sake. I did go back and read that technical article where the rosin was made more oil resistant so the plug of some sort was removed/not necessary. So is this rosin the motor winding cover/sealant?

    I've quoted what seems to be a fair consensus of WS change interval. The first to second change mileage seems inconsistent with heat cycling as the only cause of fluid degradation.

    I've seen this "recommended interval" before. So it seems the heat cycling and discoloration is not necessarily consistent with the interval, otherwise it would be every 30k mi, consistently.

    So can we agree that something other than oxidation is happening? Since the "rosin's oil resistance was improved" can we agree that this is the weak point and that is the source of pollution of the WS? What is that rosin's function in the system? (Thank you for addressing my concerns).


    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
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