Supporting Our Troops

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Feb 22 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]394653[/snapback]</div>

Great, one example, in 55 years of constant conflict - you got one. how many can you find of the other side? i know you dont want to look that one up - it would upset you.

please get original. find something less then half a century old.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 22 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]394670[/snapback]</div>

There are many, many others from that period of time. Sure they're old... but why are you so quick to dismiss the past, and are you as willing to dismiss the past of other countries as easily?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 22 2007, 12:25 PM) [snapback]394640[/snapback]</div>

I'll agree with you on one thing... we couldn't win a war today or tomorrow - but not because of "me and mine here". It's because of the president making bad choices. I would fully support the president if i felt that the war was just, had a good cause, and was well run.

What truly astounds me about you post is the utter lack of faith in our military and its abilities. Thats compounded with your quick turn around - you defend Israel all over the place on the boards here, but would fully support the US attacking them.

Nice double standard.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Feb 22 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]394692[/snapback]</div>

feel free to point them out to me like you did the king david hotel....

i mean you say there are "many many" more......waiting.......

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 22 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]394723[/snapback]</div>

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm

All the kidnappings and murders you'd care to read about.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Feb 22 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]394713[/snapback]</div>

Again, you are hampered by jaundiced glasses. Even when Presidents make bad mistakes (Battle of the Buldge, etc) our armed forces are the best the world has ever seen and would end any conflict they were given free reign to fight in with no doubt in my mind. hamstring them with politicos like murtha, pelosi, durbin, etc and they are fighting with one arm tied behind their back. blow every thing out of proportion (abu graib) and castigate hundreds of thousands for the actions of a few - and you hurt them all.

and when you are elected CIC you can make decisions that count - you are a very egocentric person - if YOU dont agree with the war - WOW - who died and made you GOD?

I am an AMERICAN JEW in that order - sorry to disappoint you. I would hope that two great free democratic societies would never war - but if it came to that there is no doubt that Israel would be able to defend itself and inflict enough death and destruction on American forces that would turn even the most anit-Semetic liberal into a peacenik in a SECOND! You cannot even tolerate 3,000+ KIA in FOUR YEARS of war - I laugh at that - Israel could kill/wound that many in a matter of hours if the targets of opportunity were there. and understand this, IT IS NOT MY LACK OF FAITH IN THE AMERICAN MILITARY -IT IS MY LACK OF FAITH IN PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND YOURS - you are our greatest threat to security and peace - you are the ones that see evil and call it good, that see good and call it evil, that protest and insist on granting rights to people trying to kill us, that undermine our governments ability to defend and protect us. I LOVE the American military and those that serve - their biggest threat is not from the outside, it is from within - it is you and yours.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 22 2007, 03:13 PM) [snapback]394733[/snapback]</div>

Please explain how my sitting in a cubicle in NJ saying the President bungled the Iraqi invasion and put our troops in a position they shouldn't be in is a threat to them doing their jobs. While you're at it, you can explain what exactly you've done to support the troops. Have you sent them care packages? Letters? Greeted them at the airport? Have a son or daughter serving? Or just put a 2 dollar magnet on the back of your car?

You continue to fail to recognize is that there is a difference between supporting the war and supporting the troops. A does not equal B in this case.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Feb 22 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]394739[/snapback]</div>

You should not confuse failure to recognize something from something that is not possible in the first place. If it makes you feel better to say you support the troops but not their mission - fine. you fail to recognize by not supporting their mission you embolden those that wish to do them harm.

if you supported your cops and/or firefighters the way you do "YOUR" troops you would be in serious trouble - i would suggest you live in a concrete house with a well stocked gun cabinet.

Tell me, if the troops want to follow on with the mission at hand, by not supporting that mission are you still supporting the troops??

 

Question - how many troops have you personally spoken to? How many have said "Oh boy, i want to go back to Iraq and kick some more butt!"?

I'll answer the question from my point of view: I've talked to many - I'm afraid i don't have an exact count. An individual who was very close to my family was KIA in Iraq. A few weeks later, we got a letter he had mailed out the morning he was killed. Two pages - i repeat, two pages - of the letter was dedicated to expressing how terrified he was of the area, the restrictions on the troops, and his chances for survival. He expressed, in several points during that letter that he wished he had never signed up, and wanted to go home. That day his unit came under fire from two entrenched machine guns. He was hit in the leg during the initial barrage. Rather than waiting in (relative) safety for medical attention, he dragged 2 others who were wounded worse than he was to safety and was going back for a third when he was critically wounded.

Don't tell me it's impossible to support the troops while not supporting the war. Because of this war, there is one less 19 year old, dedicated to his country individual who knew, with no doubt in his mind, that the war was unwinable but continued to fight because of his dedication to his country.

To this day, i support the troops. I write letters, send care packages, and spend time with those i know when they are home, providing comfort and support.

I also don't support the war. We are in the country for the wrong reasons. We were lied to about those reasons. The leadership restricts our troops from doing their job, and doesn't give them the support they need.

So please, how many troops have you personally talked to that want to continue with the mission?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 22 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]394468[/snapback]</div>

Is this capitalist system that you have expressed such disdain for in the above comment, and elsewhere, the same one that gave you the means to purchase your 2004 Prius?

Just checking.


Curious to know what, or if, we would all be driving, if the socialist government that you dream of ever came to pass. Trabants, maybe?

(sure, and this post has about as much to do with the original topic as daniel's does. Which is to say, none)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 22 2007, 01:45 PM) [snapback]394764[/snapback]</div>

For the sake of argument, let's say this is true. If I disagree with current policy (i.e. the war in Iraq), do I have any recourse? I am sick to death of hearing the word "embolden." This is a ridiculous scare tactic that suggests one must fall in line with the current administration's policy or you are the enemy. Have you ever heard of the term demagoguery? If I disagree, should I just keep my mouth shut and be a good little boy? This is precisely the type of attitude that fuels the war on terror, to which there is no end in sight. The problem with a neverending war is the fact that we are all expected to forego some of our liberties in such times of sacrifice. People have indeed made sacrifices in the past, such as during WWII; but when there is no end in sight, are said sacrifices permanent? I agree that we must be vigilent, but not voice an unwelcome opinion? But, then, I guess that's the (new) american way.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 22 2007, 03:45 PM) [snapback]394764[/snapback]</div>

You're a Republican, right? And you keep attacking Democrats as unpatriotic for not supporting the war. You accuse anyone criticizing the President or the War as supporting terrorists and undermining the troops.

It would be fun to find what you were posting on the internet when Clinton was Commander in Chief and there were troops in Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo. Were you posting attacks of the President and our troops presence in those countries? I'll bet you were. Bet you could be accused of "emboldening" Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda for your attacks on Clinton.

Well, time for a big cup of STFU.

"The Federalist Party (ancestor of the modern Republican Party) was so incensed with Madison and the Democratic Republicans leaning toward France over England in the lead up to the War of 1812 that their more reactionary members even considered New England secession from the pro-French rest of the country.

During the Civil War election year of 1864, not only was the “savior of the union†Abraham Lincoln challenged for re-election, he was challenged by one of his own former military commanders, General George McClellan, who vociferously criticized his commander in chief for failed military policies in dealing with the South.

During the run up to and after American entry in World War I Congressional Republicans were staunch critics of both Wilson’s war and post-war policies. Republicans ran candidates critical of FDR’s pro-English stance war record in 1940 and against his domestic and foreign policy record in 1944. (And, least we forget, across the Atlantic, the English people fired Winston Churchill in July of 1945 while war still raged in Asia.)

Republican isolationists like Robert Taft vocally criticized both Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower from the floor of the Congress for their international commitments to stop the Soviets after World War II. Ike himself was elected to the Presidency in large part for his repudiation of Harry Truman’s Korea strategy. Was Ike, therefore, guilty of emboldening Mao Zedung? Richard Nixon, meanwhile, ran for President in 1968 with the promise to get us out of Vietnam (though it would take seven more years to do so), attacking LBJ for getting us into that quagmire. And, in each case, American boots were on the ground in harms way.

More recently, least we forget, many of the same Republicans whom today excoriate Democrats for criticizing a GOP commander-in-chief tripped over each other in their rush to criticize Bill Clinton’s military policy when he had boots on the ground in Somalia, troops in the air over over Haiti, troops on the ground in Bosnia, and planes in the air over Kosovo. I don’t remember Democrats attacking Newt Gingrich, Trent Lott (and the rest of the chorus of Republican partisan patriots–e.g. when we do it, it’s for America, when Democrats do it, it’s against America, regardless of whatever “it†is) for “emboldening†Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda when Republicans attacked Clinton for trying to off Bin Laden with cruise missile attacks in 1998 on Sudan and Afghanistan. "

Shaddup Already.

Time to SHUT UP ALREADY, Berman.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 22 2007, 08:41 PM) [snapback]394952[/snapback]</div>

Nice try -

You try to nuance what you are doing as to being "patriotic" or "Ameican" - fine - you have your rights - exercise them. Support the Dems who are trying to usurp executive war making powers. support them when they try to defund the war (btw - do you personally support this action). whatever. i could care less.

but do not try to tell me what you are doing is supporting our troops - for you do not support them in any meaningful way. you do embolden those who wish them harm. and yes i would support AN president who decides to send troops to war and i would support the mission and the troops all together in one package without any nuancing. once you need to explain your position or actions - that is all the evidence i need to know your "support" of my armed forces is at best a facade.

it is you who would be better off stfu - how ladylike!
not that it is important - but are you a US citizen?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 23 2007, 08:08 AM) [snapback]395106[/snapback]</div>

And in what meaningful way do you support the troops? C'mon, Doc. It's not a hard question. You're so quick to condemn other points of views, it must be because you're a textbook example of how it should be done. If you're doing it, it shouldn't be too hard to put us in our place.

If you got the goods, put it out there. Otherwise you're just blowing a lot of hot air.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Feb 23 2007, 08:31 AM) [snapback]395111[/snapback]</div>

I try to stay away from discussions like this, but in terms of directly supporting the troops, the only thing I found that I could do was to sponsor care packages through the USO. I do so annually. All it takes is a credit card, and you may offer whatever inspirational message you wish to accompany your care package. The relevant website is:

http://www.usocares.org/src/uso_home.htm

It's not much, but other than paying my taxes without complaint, and writing to my elected representatives, that was all I could think to do directly to support the troops. As I've said in the past here, if you really think the troops ought to stay in Iraq indefinitely, you can tell them directly in your USO care package. By contrast, I offer a brief note of thanks and the wish that they get home safely soon.

Regarding a systematic look at how out troops in Iraq view the war, the best source is the Jauary 2006 survey by Zogby poll, done in cooperation with the US military. You can find the results here, along with links to the actual survey and methods:

http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

As of Jan 2006, 72% of US troops on the ground in Iraq favored withdrawing within a year, including a bare majority of Marines and overwhelming majority of everybody else. If you know something about statistics, you can read the methods section to see that this was a well-conducted poll and that the results are a reasonably accurate reflection of attitudes of US soldiers in Iraq. If you don't know anything about statistics, well, you'll have to take the stated accuracy of the survey on faith.

On the realpolitik reasons for entering and staying in Iraq, there was an interview with Noam Chomsky posted today on Counterpunch. This is by far the most cogent analysis of our current situation that I have ever read. Be warned though: it is likely to irritate right-wingers and left-wingers, and it is not flattering to Bush or to the state of Israel. I am posting it here in case anyone wants to see a realisic, thoughtful analysis of the situation.

http://www.counterpunch.org/shank02222007.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Feb 23 2007, 09:04 AM) [snapback]395126[/snapback]</div>

chogan, thank you for the link. As you have, I've sent notes and letters expressing the same sentiments you have. I've also donated goods to local groups putting together care packages. I wasn't aware you could sponsor care packages through the USO. That's a fantastic idea. I really appreciate the idea!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Feb 23 2007, 08:31 AM) [snapback]395111[/snapback]</div>

I do what i want to do and as is my case all my charity work remains silent.

In the past besides donating money to worthy organizations that support our veterans i have donated my time taking care of vietnam vets and done a lot of work with and in the VA hospital system. We also give to many organizations that settle immigrants in Israel and those that support Israeli troops.

In my religion the highest form of giving to charity is doing so anonymously - something i try to practice and i wish i had more to give.

condemning other points of view has nothing to do with the thrust of this post. i would never try to put anyone in "their place" when it comes to giving charity whether it be with money or time. I honor everyone that does it . there is no more generous country than this one and I am very proud of it. my grandparents and parents and brother and sister have been and continue to be very involved in giving to others. it is one of the most important things one can do in life.

why you make this into a pissing match is beyond me? I hope i satisfied your curiosity - if not - too bad.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Feb 23 2007, 07:08 AM) [snapback]395106[/snapback]</div>

Point of fact - There are no - ABSOLUTELY NONE - "executive war making powers" provided in the constitution. None what so ever.

Go read the document before you start spouting off your poor excuse for an argument.

I find it exceedingly odd how individuals on here can list the ways they support the troops (care packages, time spent with them when they come home, letters of encouragement and condolence when appropriate), and you still say they aren't supporting them in "any meaningful way" because they don't support Bush's war.

I'll be willing to listen to such an argument when you tell us what you've done to support the troops currently serving in Iraq, besides touting what a great a majestic leader Bush is all over the internet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Essayons @ Feb 22 2007, 05:16 AM) [snapback]394446[/snapback]</div>

Keith thanks for your service. My prayers include safety for all service people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Feb 22 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]394903[/snapback]</div>

Yes, the capitalist system that I regard as detrimental to society and destructive of the environment, and which systematically excludes large groups of people from the mainstream economy, thus pushing them towards crime as a survival mechanism, is the same system which, through no effort or intention of mine, has made me wealthier than any person has any right to be.

However, giving away all my money would accomplish little, and I ain't about to look a gift horse in the mouth. So I donate selectively, and contribute my volunteer time, to organizations that work to try to make our country and the world a more humane place. And I give money (sometimes a little, and sometimes a lot) to friends who are not as well-off as I am, and I give money to panhandlers.

My comment was in response to someone who expressed dislike of the way soldiers are taken advantage of. I merely pointed out that soldiers are in no wise special in this regard: Capitalism scams everyone.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Feb 23 2007, 05:31 AM) [snapback]395111[/snapback]</div>

He probably has a yellow ribbon on his car.