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Swapped out 2 bad cells in HV pack, strange behavior afterwards?

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by Irrenarzt, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    So I'm not as technically adept as many of you veterans but I'm hoping you can help me diagnose my problem with the little information I have.

    I've got a 2003 Prius, 2nd owner 250k miles, and I am positive the original owner (a fellow co-worker) had never had any issues with the HV battery. I started getting P3006 recently and I was resetting it with my POS 29 dollar code reader (hey it gets the job done, just barely) daily. I bit the bullet and pulled the pack and took apart all the busbar connections and cleaned them thoroughly (etched them clean with a medium strength HNO3 solution then neutralized with bicarbonate then rinsed thoroughly). I also wire brushed everything relating to current that I could find. I then went and measured all the disconnected cells and found one at 6.5 V and one a few 10ths below at 7.6 V (the rest were all at 7.99, 7.98, 7.97 V). I used a 2 man rule and had an AED on hand, as well as 1kV lineman gloves. I think we were as safe as possible.

    I ordered 2 used cells from Priusrebuilders who sent them a couple days later and I did witness some self discharge as the bulk of the cells were all about 7.77 V after about a week of waiting for the "new" cells to arrive. The "new" cells were at 7.46 V or so. We installed the 2 "new" ones and I reinstalled the HV battery pack in the car tonight after work. Car is running well but I am getting the triangle and the 3 icons on the main screen but no check engine light. I can reset the codes but my code reader is not showing any codes now. Once I clear the triangle, it comes back on within a minute of starting the car.

    I'm confused as I'm not getting any fault codes but I am getting the triangle. Might this be my POS reader isn't recognizing a code? It was reading the P3006 code before so I doubt that would be the case. I am hoping driving it will charge the "new" cells and subsequently the triangle will go away after clearing the codes (which I'm not seeing any of oddly). I am glad I went ahead and did the cell swap as I've been reading about this on and off for awhile now and it's nice to have seen the guts in all their living glory. Definitely an educational week or so.

    Any advice is greatly welcomed. Thanks in advance...
     
    #1 Irrenarzt, Jun 18, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  2. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    Buy a Mini VCI cable on Ebay or Amazon. You will need a Windows laptop to run Toyota's Teachsream software with the Mini VCI cable. Then you will be able to see all the codes. But if there is no check engine light I think a code has not been set. You can use a 12 volt battery charger to level off the replacement modules. Set at 2 amps my car starting charger will put 30 amps through the lower voltage Prius modules. Limit the charging to 10 second bursts. To match 7.77 volts you need to over shoot the charge to about 7.9X volts. The voltage will drop back down in a few minutes.

    I recommend washing first Gen modules when rebuilding a pack. Soap and water will not hurt individual modules. Rinse and dry in the sun. Just minute amounts of electrolyte and dirt can cause leakage problems.

    Brad
     
  3. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Exactly. It is guaranteed that DTC exist given the presence of the warning icons on the MFD. Of the three, find the one which is lit up and that will give you a general idea of the problem area.

    The reason that the check engine light is not on is because the problem is not related to the engine and the engine ECU has not logged a DTC. However the problem could be with the hybrid vehicle ECU, the traction battery ECU, even the power steering ECU.
     
  4. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    Ok thanks gentlemen. I appreciate the insight. I don't have a Windows laptop so I think that is out for now. I had one but I recently gave it to my business partner as it was getting old and slow and he had nothing.

    Would it be advisable to simply drive the car to get the voltages of the "new" cells up? I'd rather not pull the HV battery again if I don't have to.
     
  5. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    A Mini VCI cable sells for as little as $17.55 on ebay. And you would have to borrow back your own computer! You could try not putting any more gas in the car and see how that works for you. Cars cost money, and time. Walking is always an option.
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Since you are self-described as not technically adept, you may not understand that it is extremely useful to operate from a position of knowledge rather than guessing. Instead of relying upon what you have described as POS, we have suggested that you obtain a tool that will give you the same information as available to a Toyota dealer tech. But you turn that down on the basis that you do not have a Windows XP or Windows 7 laptop.

    Thus you are condemned to continue to guess what is wrong with your car and waste time accordingly.
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If there's a university near you, you might check whether it has a salvage outlet where many things, including old computers, are sold off. You can often find something for pretty cheap. You don't need anything recent or powerful.

    -Chap
     
  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Or for that matter, eBay. That is available to everyone regardless of whether you live in a major college town or in the middle of nowhere.
     
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sadly, many people who own 12 year old cars do so for a reason. they are in no financial position to do anything else. when the car breaks, it's a financial hardship. with prius, you get it in spades.
     
  10. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    Sadly, I am economically challenged. I have made some bad decisions financially in my life. The Prius allows me to work on those problems when it is operating well, as it is cheap to drive.

    I will try to figure out a way to get it scanned but anything with costs attached will have to wait as I literally am down to my last 1.50 until next week. So I can't even afford a cable from ebay at this time.

    I appreciate any help I can get but I am not looking for handouts. I prefer to fix my own problems but this is beyond my means at this time.

    The right most logo on the main display is the one that is lit up. The one with the car and an exclamation point if that narrows things down.
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    That means the hybrid vehicle ECU has logged a fault code. The problem could be with the traction battery, inverter, or transaxle.
     
  12. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    Thank you kind sir. I appreciate the information.

    I have managed to land a laptop from an IT guy I know (not the POS laptop I gave to my business partner, that one barely works) and will order the cable on Wednesday when I get paid. I will download the Techstream and go from there.

    I will figure this out. Thanks to everyone for their help.
     
    #12 Irrenarzt, Jun 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  13. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    You are taking a chance driving this car in it's current condition. It could stop running at any time. Pay attention to the routes you drive. Make sure that you have an out where the car can be parked on a moments notice. Freeways are out. You can not afford to have your car towed to an impound lot. Keep your current code reader and tools to disconnect the 12 volt battery in the car at all times. You might continue to get lucky and be able to clear disabling codes. It takes time to get a Mini VCI cable. The problem is likely in the HV battery. This is based on the HV ecu logging a code and that you were just messing around inside the battery. Without a proper code reader you can not be sure. There are things you could try to do with the battery while waiting for a code reader.

    Start with using reverse to discharge the battery. Car on and warmed up, set parking brake, transmission in reverse, foot on the brake, give it a little gas but not so much as to turn on the gas engine. The car will sit still and discharge the battery. Try to get the display down to just two bars. Running the battery down will increase the differences of the module voltages. Then take the battery apart again. Wash all the modules to spotlessly clean. Use any 9 to 12 volt charger to bring the lower voltage modules in line with the others. You have to over shoot the desired voltage as the modules will drop after the charger is removed. Use just short bursts of 10 seconds when using a dump over voltage charger.
    This is the hard way to do things and guessing is involved. It would be easier to wait for the cable.

    Brad
     
  14. Beachbummm

    Beachbummm Senior Member

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    I would remove and charge the 12 volt battery and clear the code as soon as you put it back in..it might be going bad causing the issue...if that fails sell it..a gen 1 with 250000 miles has little value running..i see them locally for around $2000 with less miles, with issues under $1000
     
  15. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    Thanks for the continued suggestions. I will try the 12V battery trick as this seems easy enough to do while I wait. I do not want to pull the pack out again until I have to as I am doing that part by myself and that's not the most pleasant. That damn duct on the passenger side is a bitch to get back on correctly solo I have found.

    I am confused though about which mini vci cable to buy. I see 16 pin vs. 22 pin and multiple software versions. I was able to land a copy of the Techstream software labeled as V9.00.025 but I'm sure there are newer versions. Will this work with any of the mini vci cables? Also it appears they are all coming from China, which sucks as this adds to my wait.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I bought two miniVCI. The first one only worked in our NHW11 (2003) but came with the firmware updater . . . that did not work. The Xhorse site had been taken down. Still, I had this ZVW30 (2010) Prius and needed to maintain both.

    So I asked Mr Google for "xhorse miniVCI price" and found a site, $15 more, for another and it works with both cars. I just tried the same search and it came back $15.20 + shipping.

    A couple of years ago, someone came who needed a miniVCI on a Pacific Island. I sent the first one to him but never heard if he ever used it. The alternative was the trash can and I know he never writes.

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    Are you also removing the top center duct that the right side duct attaches to? This makes the job much easier.
     
  18. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    I was not removing that upper duct, but I will next time so thank you.

    As for the 12 V battery, I took it out and have it charging on the bench top with a 2A charge from an old Sears charger I've had for many years but still works well. I measured it at 12.96 V when I removed it so I think that seems ok. I've seen standard PbH+ into the 13+ V range so I'll run a charge on it for awhile, just to be safe. This is not the original 12 V battery as my coworker did replace that at some point. Being such a small battery, it may wear faster than ones used in other cars, but that's just a guess at this point.

    The car is still running fine, other than the triangle and such. I was supposed to drive to the Bay Area this weekend, but I am skeptical of doing so in this state. I think local is fine, but a long drive like that could end up being a large problem, requiring me to salvage the car in place so to say. Frankly I'm better off staying home and saving my vacation days, of which I do not have many of at this moment.

    Any suggestions as to which mini VCI cable to buy are still welcomed. I get paid tomorrow so I can afford to order this right away.
     
  19. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Junior Member

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    Charged the battery all night at 2A and no change in the issue at all. I measured 12.86V after 10 hours of charging so I assume that's not what is throwing my code.
     
  20. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Unloaded voltage is not always indicative on how the modules perform under load.
    Without knowing the code it is kind of a guessing game.

    Check for any hairline cracks in the sensing wires

    Also, since you say it doesn't come on for a minute, sometimes that can be indicative of a transaxle or inverter issue.
    Again, the code would help clue you in.

    As far as computers, it's easy to get a sub-$100 xp netbook/notebook from craigslist.(If you have the money.)

    If it is at all driveable, it may be worth it to have the dealer diagnose it for you.