Synthetic oil - tales of warranty void?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jmccord @ Jun 14 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]271500[/snapback]</div>

The real benefit from the synthetic is the lack of wear. If you wait until the engine is out of warranty, the engine has already had greater wear than using synthetic from the first oil change. Also, once things start wearing the rate of wear is accelerated. It is the same reason tires are rotated.

I'm not sure you can measure the cost basis strictly by price of synthetic oil vs. price of regular oil. There are added benefits to synthetic, such as longer engine life and probably slightly better mpg.

I do agree that the synthetic oil could probably go much longer than the recommended oil change interval, but at least in North America we have to keep changing the oil every 5000 miles to keep Toyota happy. After the warranty is over I suppose you could have the oil analyzed to see if it would last longer, but there is also a cost to that.

 

If you search prior messages in this group you will find all sorts of opinions. But nothing about synth oil causing stalling!

We really don't know if Prius engines will "wear less" or have longer service life with synthetic. It will develop less (or no) varnish on non-cantact surfaces, but we don't know if that matters. What we do know is that synth oil has the capabability to support extended oil change intervals, should one decide to use them. Then you could use half as much engine oil over time. If there is a fuel economy advantage, it comes from using a thinner iscosity, and that is a whole 'nother discussion.

Users of synth oil (on any schedule) have nothing to justify! If you want to, do it. What cries out in all these discussions is uninformed or unscrupulous TOYOTA EMPLOYEES who do and say things that insult these fine vehicles. The presumption that the owners are idiots is no more comforting.

Since oil overfills/missfills/related lies appear to be the most frequent Toyota shop error, I would not mind it if you all used it as a "prequalification exam". If they can't get this one small thing right, use a different shop. Tell the service director that they were tested, and failed.

On the DIY oil change don't forget to replace the crush washer on the oil drain bolt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sho-Bud @ Feb 1 2006, 02:38 AM) [snapback]201720[/snapback]</div>

I know. I am from the UK and live here in the US. They try and talk you into changes at 3750 here in Seattle. Total nonsense. I asked Toyota about the difference and they said they could not comment on other regions.

At some point, someone somewhere will do an investigation into this.

 

for reference- recommended oil specs:

http://priuschat.com/index.php?act=dscript...details&f_id=30

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jun 15 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]271792[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the reference Galaxee.
Curious to note that the TSB, dated December 2004, recommends "API Grade SL", however I believe the SL grade is now being replaced with API Grade SM. The Toyota brand 5W-30 was clearly marked "SM". I believe the SM grade is the new and improved standard, and most major oil brands are now qualified to both SL/SM API standard. Probably doesn't make a lick of difference anyway

Changed the oil with Quaker State 5W-30 dino today at 3,500 miles. I took heed of overfill warnings, proceded carefully with the refill and had no problems. Found the strong points for the lifting arms beneath the rocker panels (look for the two notches ) and got it up on the 4-point lift simplifying procedure greatly. However, I had so much fun wandering around under the car, and rotating tires, that my oil change took 2 hours!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Jun 15 2006, 08:59 AM) [snapback]271600[/snapback]</div>

I also replaced the stock drain bolt with a Fumoto Oil Drain Valve (couldn't resist) which came with its own washer. Went in like a breeze, and bubble tight. I hope it stays that way!

By the way, I couldn't help but wonder during tire rotation - just how important is torquing those lug nuts? I've never used anything but elbow grease before. Isn't that adequate? :huh:
Perhaps another thread search is in order.

 

i think those are the minimum requirements. the TSB was revised in january 06 so they are relatively current. i can ask DH about SL vs SM recommendation when he gets home.

 

I hope I can get this question out in a lucid manner.....

First, I have committed to using the pre-paid Toyota Maintenance package. I did not have the luxury of reading this thread first. Now I am wondering what my consequences will be.

See, I doubt I will be able to use synthetic oil with my pre-paid service. Is that a correct assumption? And even if I were able to use it I am confused just what specific advantage there is to engine life. I have always read that synthetic will increase engine life but that is such a broad statement I have no way to honestly evaluate it.

Second, if I were to wait until the pre-paid service package is over with I am led to believe that moving to synthetic oil would no longer be of any benefit because I waited too long.

What is a guy to do? Yes, I "plan" on keeping my Prius a long time (at least 10 years). But how do I now take advantage of this newly found intelligence on synthetic oils given my circumstances with the pre-paid Toyota service plan? Is the point to be concluded that if I stay with what Toyota recommends I will not attain as useful a life of service with my Prius without using synthetic oils?

I would appreciate some thoughtful insights.

Thanks.

 

My original reason for switching to synthetic oil around 2000 was that I noticed that every few years car manufacturers would upgrade their oil requirements, requiring a higher grade (apparently new we are up to grade SL/SM). I assumed it would just be a matter of time before they all required synthetic, so I might as well go ahead and use synthetic now and get a jump on engine wear. Also I had more money for things like that.

Now that I'm not working, I'm changing my tune. I figure if Toyota doesn't require synthetic oil I'm not going to bother. It costs an additional $20 each change for me to buy synthetic and bring it to my oil changer. Over the 200k miles that I hope to own the car, that adds up to $800. That's a lot of money to spend hoping to prevent an engine problem... I'd have to be pretty confident that using regular oil would cause engine problems (which would be prevented by synthetic) in 200k miles to take that risk. But all the evidence is that Toyotas are unlikely to require engine replacements if you change normal oil every 5k miles. So unless I got really lucky, the return on my $800 investment would probably be zero.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tmorrowus @ Jun 17 2006, 05:12 PM) [snapback]272789[/snapback]</div>

Some of my reasons for changing to synthetics are.

1. Synthetics don't break down as rapidly as Dino oils do; their molecule chains are much shorter and uniform. Extended drain interval, (I save money, the planet, and my engine).
2. Since they don’t break down they protect from sludge build up. They keep your engine clean and a clean engine is an efficient engine.
3. They protect from cold weather start up and extreme summer heat.
4. I don't have to waste my time or money for oil changes every 5000 miles, and again I save the planet due to a lot less waste oil.
5. I might save a very small amount of gas due to slightly better mileage.

I own Prius for a lot of the same reasons I use synthetics, just makes too much sense not to.

As for warranty worries see Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act Law. Take a copy to your dealer and after they are done with their BS show them the law and watch their reaction.

 

On the DIY oil change don't forget to replace the crush washer on the oil drain bolt.
[/quote]
^^^^^^

I watched the first oil change, he just fished the bolt out of the screened drain funnel
and re-installed it.
what crush washer?
what does it look like?
What is the Toyota part number?

 

both SL and SM are fine to use for an oil change.

 

Yes synthetic oils are wonderful, I use them.

BUT, those of you who are not using synthetic oil need not be worried about what the consequences will be, there won't be any. The stresses and heat generated by the engine of any road car are not that great, especially the Prius where the engine doesn't always run, especially doesn't idle, and is assisted by the electric motor. Toyota designed the car ti use normal oil, if they thought synthetic would be neccissary to get maximum life they would have specified that they be used, they didn't.

For those of you that are saying that you can extend the intervals of your oil changes with synthetic, I wouldn't. One thing Toyota DOES say is that oil change intervals should not be increased when using synthetic, that COULD void your warranty. Change your oil every 5k whether you use synthetic or not.

As for the original post, the dealer doesn't care if you bring your own synthetic because their profit margins are so high on the service anyways. Small shops do because they lose out on what to them is a lot of the profit of the service when you bring your own parts. Should they have lied? No. However, I have had independent shops refuse my request to bring my own oil before. The dealer doesn't care, even though they markup Mobil 1 to $20 a quart (a 300% markup from retail) at Lexus.

 

Very important, everyone that does their own maintenance should buy a torque wrench and learn how to use it. Too tight and you risk tweaking a rim, or bending the rotor, or breaking a lug. Not tight enough and you risk having the tire work itself loose. torque spec on most aluminum rims is right around 70 ft lbs, not sure about the Prius though but suspect it's in manual.

Only had ours a week, but I've already got the M1 5w30 ready for the first change..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 18 2006, 12:13 PM) [snapback]273091[/snapback]</div>

If synthetic would allow me to extend the oil change interval it would be worth it. On my last car, a Civic, I extended the oil change interval from 3750 to 5000 using Mobil 1. I don't want to extend it past 5000 on the Prius because that seems like it would increase the risk of problems due to filter clogging. I suppose I could probably extend it to 7500 miles without a lot of risk, but that wouldn't save me much hassle and why take the additional risk of filter clogging?

I have always been allowed to bring my own Mobil 1 oil to dealers or independent shops. The dealers give me a discount of perhaps $8 since they don't have to use their own oil. The independents don't give me any discount. It actually saves them money for me to bring my own oil (versus using their own oil for the same price).

 

It really depends on the independent shops. I've run across several that would not use my oil, I suppose had I offered to pay full price and then have them use my oil they probably would have agreed, but I didn't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Why @ Jun 18 2006, 09:44 AM) [snapback]273074[/snapback]</div>

This url may answer some of those questions

http://oem.overnightautoparts.com/parts/ov...Gasket&dp=false

This one is for the older model but it is the same. Not sure that is a toyota part number but just ask for an oil drain plug washer or crush washer at the parts desk and they will know. Should cost about a buck, really. I would not be confident that the drain plug is 100% leak free w/o this. One would have to torque the bolt really tight; this could strip the threads in the oil pan. Then you need a new oil pan and gasket.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tmorrowus @ Jun 18 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]273100[/snapback]</div>

By law, if Toyota wants to refuse a warrantee claim because of synthetic oil and extended drain intervals, they have to PROVE the oil was the cause of the failure. It virtually never is. I have been using synthetic oil for over 10 years and have been very glad of it. I put 180K on my Subaru SVX and it behaved as peppy the day I sold it as the day I bought it. That did not happen before the synthetics. Early (as of 10-12 years ago) synthetics had a habit of eating head gaskets every 100,000MI, but newer formulations have licked that. Frankly, I don't mind changing the head gasket every 100K if the engine stays tight. I use Amsoil 0-30W and change it once a year (about 12-15K for me.) It is rated at a 25,000Mi change interval, but I use their oil filters which are rated at a 12,000MI interval and it is just convenient to do it all at once. Also, I expect it would be remarkably hard to get a dealer to put old oil back in and I doubt they would keep it clean while it was out.

 

That post about recycling synthetic oil as long as the testing lab says its still good is not good advice. No testing lab tests for everything, like oxidation. And full flow oil filters, no matter how good, does not filter out smaller particles that do cause wear. If they did, being full flow, they would be too much of a restriction to oil flow through the engine, hence the use of bypass filters which don't have that problem.
I don't consider Amsoil full flow filters to be that great, though expensive - they have a regular company make an ordinary filter with their name. Mobile 1 filters and K&N filters have tested far better. A good bypass filter, and Amsoil does sell good ones, do filter out very small particles, even smaller than the sizes that cause wear. At one time, maybe still, Amsoil bought Mobile 1 and repackaged it.
I use Mobile 1 extended and change it once a year or 15,000 miles, whichever comes first in my regular car, which does have the Amsoil dual filter (full flow, using Mobile 1 or K&N filter and an Amsoil bypass filter) external kit placed in front of the radiator for cooling. I have 562,471 miles on it, still does not burn oil.
I have only 6,400 on my Prius, and next change I will use Mobile 1 extended. I would like to use a bypass, and will have to see if I can fit it in. My understanding is that cars that come with synthetic oil have engines that were specially honed so they can break in with it. Since the Prius did NOT come with synthetic oil, I hestitate to accept the opinions of others and simply will wait until the second change since the engine has less miles on it than the odometer would indicate due to partial run time. Since oil is the life blood of an engine, I tend not to scrimp on oil, or grease for that matter.
Sure hope I can find a spot to place a remote dual filter kit!

 

Mobil One has been on the market since 1974 - I've used it for nearly that long. I get the same nonsense when my Honda Insight is serviced - don't use Mobil One...use Honda's oil - which I've heard is also synthetic.

 

Just a few comments on this old and revived thread.

First, yes, you can use synthetic oil in a new engine. Chevrolet does in the Corvette. I'm pretty sure that engine, though advanced for GM, is just run of the mill technologically speaking.

Second, with the original synthetic oils, you were advised to -not- switch back to non-synthetic after using them. Modern synthetics don't have this "problem". In fact, the guys in the "bobistheoilguy" site consider the current Mobil 1 to be not "fully synthetic". I'm not going to tell you the reasons, as I forget, and they wouldn't mean much to anyone but an organic chemist.

Third, using Mobil 1 (or other "known" synthetic oils) will probably not result in improved mileage in the Prius. It didn't in Pearl. It did in the "anti-Prius" (2001 Pathfinder 3.5L V6). I still use it because it doesn't stiffen up as much as "ordinary" oil in the cold, and I like to baby my car. The extra cost is minor.

Fourth, oil weight is a viscosity vs temperature rating.
It works like this:
5-30 oil - at "some lower temp" it has a viscosity the same as a 5 weight oil at that temp and at "some upper temp" it has a viscosity the same as a 30 weight oil at that temp. The temps are chosen by the oil company.
5W30 oil - at the freezing point of water (0C) the oil has a viscosity the same as a 5 weight oil at 0C and at the boiling point of water (100C) the oil has a viscosity the same as a 30 weight oil at 100C.
Use of the "W" indicates some kind of standard measuring system has been employed, which indicates to me there is no "smoke and mirror" sales going on.

You still have to look at the additives, which affect the oil performance, and you can determine that by the letters used after the weight. Do a search on the internet for a more complete explanation of these.