Taking a Dim Vue of Saturn Hybrid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 29 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]340389[/snapback]</div>

i probably shouldn't take offense at this... but what makes you think that all of america's mechanics are well off to begin with?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Oct 29 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]340420[/snapback]</div>

I sincerely and humbly apologize to America's mechanics. In my effort to insult the car, I was playing off Tom & Ray's constant jokes about mechanics' boats whenever a car requires expensive repairs.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 29 2006, 03:54 PM) [snapback]340402[/snapback]</div>

And when I own my Tesla Roadster it'll be a girl magnet!

 

ah, i get it. now i can see where you were going with that.

(i'm just deathly tired of everyone assuming we're well off)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 29 2006, 08:28 PM) [snapback]340412[/snapback]</div>

Why provide information if nobody asks for it. Chicken and egg, after all.

And no, I don't consider the car to be trouble free at all. MFD failure, rattles, recalls. That's not trouble free.

EDIT: I guess what really irritates me here is the fact that everyone's such a Toyotaphile that nobody else can produce anything that's of value. I just find the narrow mindedness to be sort of sad.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 29 2006, 11:01 PM) [snapback]340477[/snapback]</div>

The GreenLine is similar to IMA in that they both use roughly the same mechanism to provide a mileage/power boost. It's not a full fledged effort, I agree. What will be is the 2Mode Vue, which is due next summer. And will go on sale alongside the BAS Vue, which is going to be really interesting.

The Aura Hybrid is already in limited production, and goes into full production in January. You can find that in many of the articles that talk about it.

And just FYI, I do not believe the Saturn will be trouble free. I do believe it will be better than my Toyota. As an example, the Vue was halted for a few weeks and it's launch delayed because GM found a bug where their scan tools couldn't properly talk to the car. If that sounds familiar, it should because that was Prius recall #1. The difference is, GM knows they can't screw this up so they're taking every precaution possible. Toyota just doesn't seem to care anymore.

 

From Treehugger
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/2007_gm_saturn.php

And from Green car Congress:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/04/gm_saturn_aura_.html

Note "small amount" and "very brief." This is not even "mild" hybrid. This is micro-mini-infinitessimal hybrid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 30 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]340610[/snapback]</div>

As I referred to it during Hybridfest: Fake Hybrid.

All you are buying is the name.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Oct 30 2006, 07:55 AM) [snapback]340614[/snapback]</div>

I wouldn't slam it THAT much. Toyota has sold mild hybrids in Japan (I've seen some) in the past. I'm not sure if they still do.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/11/27/149444.html and http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/environmental_r.../kaihatu06.html are two of many places that mention them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 29 2006, 07:13 PM) [snapback]340479[/snapback]</div>

Although GM has had some recent models w/decent reliability, this is definitely not true across the board. Go subscribe to consumerreports.org or look at a car buying guide from them at a news stand.

Under family cars, the Prius had the 2nd highest predicted reliability, Accord Hybrid was the only car higher. The V8 Chevy Impala was 2nd from dead last (far below avg. reliability). Under luxury cars, the Cadillac STS were below average, w/the V8 version being dead last, off the chart w/how much worse than average it was (-189%; 0% baseline==average). The Pontiac Solstice was also off the chart (-185%) and dead last under roadsters. The Corvette was also way below average. Under small cars, the Saturn Ion was below average, and the Chevy Cobalt was dead last (also well below average). The list goes on.

How many Toyotas and Lexus were even somewhat below average? Camry 4 cylinders were listed twice at being barely average and the Lexus GSes didn't do great (somewhat below average). That's it.

I'm looking at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ty...rison-index.htm if you get a subscription.

Regardless of how much you think Toyota and GM care, the numbers speak for themselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Nov 17 2006, 03:14 AM) [snapback]350726[/snapback]</div>

Isn't consumer reports the same 'reporting' organization that somehow had a V8 Monte Carlo having a full black circle with it's paint job and a V6 Monte Carlo having a full circle (the good one) for it's paint job? That when the cars were painted on the same line using the same equipment? Did the V8 go so fast that the paint peeled off? What a joke.

No... sorry, Consumer Reports is a joke anymore and their methodology is suspect. I find truedelta.com to have a better methodology.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 17 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]350762[/snapback]</div>

I can't confirm or deny what you're talking about. In the online version, there's no data listed for the V8 Monte Carlo.

I personally have found their reliability results to be pretty accurate for the cars my parents and I have owned. I've never even heard of truedelta till now. It looks like they didn't even start doing their research till one year ago. Consumer Reports has been doing car reliability surveys for over 30 years.

Here's an example where it seems their data seems totally on the mark. Notice how drive system of the Solstice has a solid black dot (worst rating). I had heard about rear differential leaks being a problem on another forum and sure enough I found this thread http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13436. This is from a car that has sold only 17K units year to date (they seem supply constrained; 17K is a tiny quantity for a GM model) vs. 73K Priuses YTD.
[attachmentid=5691]

 

As another data point, here's an example of GM's "great quality". Check out this guy's experience w/his 06 Cadillac CTS-V: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2421093...8a500aa04d9.htm. At the end, he mentioned the rear differential prob. Apparently, the CTS (not sure about CTS-V) and the Solstice have the same rear diff and same prob.

In Consumer Reports, there was insufficient data for the 04 and 06 CTS-V. The 05 did so-so but had a solid black dot (worst rating) for drive system which includes the differential) and had some engine cooling system probs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 30 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]340610[/snapback]</div>

I think the technical term is "marketing".


My parents have owned Cadillacs since the 60s. I'm talking die-hard owners.

But my Dad swears he will not buy another Cadillac again. He cites the poor workmanship and quality. He's owned a string of them and has experienced a steady decline in workmanship and reliability with a steady increase not only in repairs but the cost of those repairs. My Mother constantly complains about the nit-picky stuff. Like the driver's seat won't heat anymore and the car can't remember the seat positions her and my Dad. Stuff like that.

My Dad is set on buying a Lexus next. I'm trying to talk him into a Toyota. My Mother is concerned about money. I think they'd be happy in a Camry. I'd like to suggest the hybrid Camry except the trunk space sucks.

Now that I've heard Toyota is planning a mid-size hybrid sedan from the ground up with the new 2009 HSD system I'll try to convince my parents to wait for that car and test drive it. They're not in a hurry to replace the Caddy now that they've sunk more money into the engine. I just hope it lasts another two years.

"Marketing is no substitute for quality." (you may quote me.)

 

Sounds like the Oldsmobile people all found jobs at Cadillac.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Dec 30 2006, 07:10 PM) [snapback]368749[/snapback]</div>

 

Speaking of Saturn and Prius, interesting article here on used car possibilities.

http://www.thestar.com/Wheels/article/165950

Some excerpts:

Perhaps the biggest surprise is the first-generation Toyota Prius (2001-03), which is every bit as durable as the rest of Toyota lineup -- despite the NASA-grade technology on board.

Owners told us they've had no problems beyond some alignment issues (a few even had steering racks replaced).

The dreaded battery pack replacement has yet to occur in any of the 40 Priuses operated by a Victoria, B.C., taxi company, and that's with some cars racking up more than 300,000 km.

Every so often we come across a used vehicle that deserves a special warning to consumers. We have two this year.

The Saturn L-series, built from 2000 to 2004, was supposed to bring German-like manners and performance to Saturn showrooms.

Alas, some owners of early models reported a litany of pricy repairs, including destroyed engines and transmissions, coolant leaks, a/c failures and chronic electrical and alignment problems.

 

Snip.....

The Saturn L-series, built from 2000 to 2004, was supposed to bring German-like manners and performance to Saturn showrooms.

Alas, some owners of early models reported a litany of pricy repairs, including destroyed engines and transmissions, coolant leaks, a/c failures and chronic electrical and alignment problems.
[/quote]


Given that some German luxury brands have been at the bottom of the reliability heap recently, maybe the "German-like manners" is an accurate description!

Mike

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stringmike @ Dec 30 2006, 09:38 PM) [snapback]368839[/snapback]</div>

Yep. Consumer Reports' reliability ratings seem to concur w/some of the above trouble spots. Before the Saturn had the L-series, their other (original) models were amongst the more reliable American cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Dec 31 2006, 03:28 AM) [snapback]368883[/snapback]</div>

Well, I had a 1996 Saturn SC2 coupe. I considered it pretty reliable. My sister does too.

It had minor problems (like door trim where the paint continually peeled. I had to replace it a year after I bought the car and the gas tank door not popping. When I first got it the cruise control didn't work.). The most chronic problem was having to have the engine clips replaced every few years. i consider it poor design. They considered it routine maintenance.

At 9 years/50,000 miles I sold it to my sister and bought the Prius. Her sons are driving it and it's fine. Chris didn't want anything to do with a stick at first but now he loves it. It's as close to a sports car as he'll ever get for the next decade.

But I had no major problems with the car in the 9 years I owned it. That's why I went to the Saturn dealership first when I started looking for a new car. It was very disappointing to see what had become of Saturn.

My loyalty only goes so far. After that test drive (maybe in an Ion?) I felt free to start looking elsewhere for a car that met my requirements. The Ion didn't. The Prius did.