Featured Tesla Model 3 LR Vs Hyundai Ioniq 5: Fast Charging Comparison

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, May 16, 2021.

  1. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Tesla Model 3 LR Vs Hyundai Ioniq 5: Fast Charging Comparison
     
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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    With my Std Rng Plus Model 3:
    • 1st drive of day - +220 miles or 3.5 hours
    • Biology break and fast food
    • 20-30 minute charge and eat
    • 2-2.5 hours 120-180 miles
    Repeat the last three steps until destination or free charging and free breakfast motel.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Since we're apparently posting irrelevant things, mine goes like this:

    2.5 hour drive
    Stop at a rest area and walk around for 10-15 minutes
    1.5 hour drive
    Lunch at a not-fast-food restaurant
    2 hour drive
    Fill the tank in 8 minutes with at least 150 miles of range remaining for emergencies
    3 hour drive
    Over 600 miles completed, over 300 miles of range remaining for emergencies
     
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  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    [​IMG]

    My question is, how is Hyundai doing this? Do they use lower-energy higher-power batteries? Better cooling? Allowing more battery damage when fast charging?

    I'd like to know answers if Hyundai ever releases any technical information.
     
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  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I expect next years models of the standard range plus will move similarly to the less expensive Chinese battery chemistry lithium iron phosphate. This will charge slower but should still be fast enough for people like us. I think the lower price will get more people using these superchargers and build out the network.

    I found it interesting that the new chemistry for the long range pack charges slower than my older chemistry. It is more energy dense though. I can see them simply adding more battery and range to this more expensive battery as they drive costs down. Old pack 8.3 miles/minute epa highway in 20%-80% charge, new pack 26 minutes 8.1 miles/minute.

    The hyundai does not yet have cars to test so they used theoretical with only wltp available for the hyundai. That gives 12.4 miles per minute on the ioniq 5 wltp, versus 9.4 miles per minute in the long range model 3 - 20%-80%. At the end of 15 minutes on the hyundai you would have added 186 miles of wltp range, but would need 20 minutes in the 2021 tesla long range. At the end of 26 minutes the long range would add 244. After this 80% both cars slow down. You charge to 100% before these long drives, then 70%-90% at the chargers to keep times lower.

    I don't know about you, but all things being equal, I don't think that 20 minutes versus 15 minutes is going to make a big difference to me, especially since I can watch netflix or play video games on my car while waiting. For other people that 15 minutes is way to long or 186 mile added range too little. Glad hyundai is in the game though. The more bev options the better.
     
  6. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    People have tested them:


    It does to me. Actually, maybe not since both are so long as to be *excruciating*. But maybe 5 fewer minutes of pain is better than nothing.

    The reasons the Ionic 5 interests me way more than any Tesla have nothing to do with charging, however. Mainly, having an actual dash and a HUD plus reportedly more comfortable suspension and fewer stupid features like having to roll the windows down to get the door open.
     
  7. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    #7 John321, May 17, 2021
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Nice so a blogger has one and did a non repeatable test. I didn't think I needed to say it, but what I meant was we don't have organizations doing repeatable tests that they do to other cars. The ioniq 5 still doesn't have an epa range. It will but for now we can only guestimate charging curves and epa highway mpge. Car and driver will get to a 75 mph highway cruising range, and insideev to a 70 mph highway cruise range as they have for other evs once they have cars to test.


    Trying to get the facts out. I really don't care at all about your personal use case. My guess is you are the only one with that use case.

    As I said in my post, which was not meant for you! More choices are good. People have different preferences. Some even want a VW post diesel gate or a gm.
     
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  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Hyundai’s batteries are lithium polymer and they’re running on an 800V architecture.

    Maybe a combination of the battery chemistry and higher voltage means aggressive cooling isn’t needed?
     
  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    That would be the higher-power lower-energy option. Maybe. Like I said, I have 5C-charge-rated LiPos for my model airplanes. But they are like 150Wh/kg.
     
    #10 Lee Jay, May 17, 2021
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    little toys might just have slightly different dynamic's. Like overall weights that are weighed in ounces vs hundreds of pounds - all compacted into (proportionally speaking) smaller spaces - or, maybe running milliwatts, versus 1,000s & 1,000s of Watts. Might as well compare a bumblebee to a stealth fighter. Yea yea, most already know toys have different Dynamics then the big Appliance. Not knocking your toys that you keep rehashing, just bringing a little balance to the ad nauseam repetition.
    .
     
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  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    They have more capacity than the individual cells in a Model S or Model 3.

    In some cases, my use is a far worse situation - compacted into a tiny space with no cooling.

    The batteries I have put out 7.5kW/kg from 100% to 15% - about 10 times that of Tesla cells.

    You don't know what you're talking about.

    You might want to learn about them. I have one plane that takes a fully-charged (100%) battery and discharges it to 15% in 2.5 minutes. Ever do that in your car?

    Model airplanes are a far more challenging application for batteries from a fast-charge/fast-discharge point of view, unless you have a car that can charge in 12 minutes and discharge in 2.5 minutes. Put another way, if a Model S battery had as much power as my model airplane batteries, it could produce 6,000 horsepower continuously from 100% to 15%.
     
    #12 Lee Jay, May 21, 2021
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  13. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    We have the answer to this now.

    Electrek.co: Hyundai says IONIQ 5 will dominate Tesla on miles per minute of charging.
    Hyundai says IONIQ 5 will dominate Tesla on miles per minute of charging - Electrek

    From our perspective, we couldn’t deploy the same strategy as Tesla in the long term. It wouldn’t be competitive for us. We had to develop a state-of-the art cooling system to support that. This battery has a cooling system that has what we call in-cell cooling, so the actual edge of the physical battery cells are in contact with the cooling plate. This facilitates really rapid cooling during fast charging.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I agree with the Hyundai goal of minimizing the charge time per mile of range. The exception is matching car charging to biological limits. Full disclosure, I am not shopping for an EV and if a Hyundai 'cranks your tractor,' go for it.

    The tabless, 4680 offers a significant thermal improvement:
    4680.jpg
    In effect, the tab-less (actually folded tabs) provides a much improved, thermal path to the cell interior. By the time I'm in the market for a next EV, these much improved cells should be in more affordable battery packs.
    Perhaps there will be Hyundai EVs at the local dealer and sales critters who won't try to 'bait and switch' to an ICE.

    Now if Hyundai dealers provided a 24x7, 800 VDC, fast charger, I'll believe they are serious. But any EV maker who depends on the 'favors' of a 3d party charging network is selling to a fool's paradise.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #14 bwilson4web, Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    They do in Korea - dubbed e-pit
     
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  16. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    The thermals of a cylindrical cell are inherently vastly inferior to the thermals of a pouch cell for the obvious reason that there's a ton of layers between the external can and the interior of the cell. Pouch cells, being long and flat, give you access to the bulk of the cell if you need that for cooling. This is why all (and I literally mean all) high-performance model cells are pouch cells. When you can discharge at 40C and charge at 5C, you need access to the cells for cooling.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We'll have to agree to disagree:
    • copper electrode maximum less than 46 mm - copper is one of the best thermal conductors, 401 W*m{-1]*K{-1} (source: List of thermal conductivities - Wikipedia) and the tabs extend the full length of the cell. The aluminum electrode is half the copper thermal conductivity but a double tab-less would be easily temperature controlled.
    • pouch cells - have a structural overhead that in the Prius prismatic batteries required a compression structure. The battery pack overhead adds weight leading to a heavier and less efficient EV.
    If in spite of the obvious mechanical and thermal problems, by all means, go for an EV that meets your expectations. Having used both CCS-1 and Supercharger networks, I welcome hearing about your experience.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  18. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Try to stay on-topic. I was talking about thermals, not capacity. Do you really think 23mm between the can and the center is better than 0mm between the outside and the electrodes on a pouch cell?

    I have pouch cells in my house that literally have zero structure - just a wrap of heat shrink for protection from handling.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    When both cooling and battery pack overhead are considered, yes. As for cost per kWh, pouch and prismatic cells are not even in the running.

    Good they are in the house and not a car.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. privilege

    privilege Active Member

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    I've been watching charging comparisons between Tesla's, Ford's, Hyundai's etc.

    it looks like Tesla is the only one that is plug and play (Tesla charger Tesla car) and the others tend to have a huge handshake/authentication failure rate.

    the interfaces are clunky (app or on charger) , and the charging rates are widely variable.

    all the videos I've seen have been at stations that had somewhere between 10-30% capacity at their chargers.

    I'm imagining the annoyance of 100% capacity at charging stations, with the clunkiness if the interface, baby sitting required, and "sorry guys, I have to start over, it wasn't charging while I was having lunch" while others are in line.
     
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