Featured Tesla Model 3 now costs as little as $23K in California thanks to tax credits

Ya, energy prices tend to go up together to a degree. Imagine a 1,000% increase in both gasoline and electricity (as well as diesel, natural gas, etc.), $50 per gallon gasoline, $1.50 per kWh electricity. Then I'd just have to pray the price of shoes doesn't go up. At least that hasn't happened and hopefully never will.

 

btw, fwiw, my original post regarding the 1000% raise needs a bit more clarification --- complex topic, isn't it?
1. Across Europe, the electricity price has gone bananas, and I belive many countries provide state-subsidy to residential usage - otherwise, many people can not pay the bill.
2. Still, with State-imposed subsidy/ price cap, the utility price is way higher than pre pandamy level.
3. Norway used to have the lowest utility price in Europe (only higher than Iceland, if that counts, but you get what I mean here , now, after many development (grid to UK, NL, etc), the price is more harmonized, sometimes it is higher than neighbours.
4. As a resident, one can choose to buy a fixed-price multi-year contract with utility company. Some smart people did a few years ago, and they got paid now by using electicity.. Yeah, sounds very good, isn't it? complicated topic here.. But just image if you charge your EV, while getting paid..

 

I understand the California utility companies got hit by some heavy fines and burned up lines from wildfires. I saw some of the older line cable insulators and suspension hardware that was obviously ‘end of life’.

Bob Wilson

 

I don't know how the electricity grid works in EU. Are they mostly clean power, or still have some dirty petro-based generators? I have never lived in the EU, so don't know how expensive the energy is there, but my guess is that you pay way more per gallon for gasoline than in the US. But, how about electricity? If you were paying nearly nothing pre-pandemic, yeah 1000% is a shocker to anyone. But when you say "the 1000% raise", what were the actual cost changes to the consumers?

I found this info on the internet but it is for the wholesale price. Yep, it's a roller-coaster ride. Norway: monthly electricity prices 2023 | Statista



Compared to ours: Electricity Prices | Governor's Energy Office

 

So 250 NOK is about $23 USD.

$23 USD per megawatt-hour is $2.30 USD per kilowatt-hour.

It looks like it's dipped back down to around 80¢ USD per kilowatt-hour. Ouch! That's still very high. Of course I don't know how far Norwegians usually travel per week/month/year.

 

You have a few mistakes.

I don't have the "statista" paid account, so I can't look up the source to verify the validity and accuracy of the numbers, but the chart I copied in my comment says on the Y axis "Average price in euros per megawatt-hour". So, it is more like 1EUR-1.09USD at the current exchange rate.

250EUR = 272.5USD

$272 USD per megawatt-hour is $0.272 USD/kWh

And this is for wholesale, so I have no idea what is being charged to consumers at the retail level with subsidies.

So, even without subsidies, the historically most expensive wholesale price on electricity in Norway, ~$0.27/kWh is still cheaper than my current residential electricity rate of $0.31/kWh.

 

Thanks! I see my mistakes now. But yes, the current wholesale price is not that far from what I pay too. Now imagine if it were 1000% more than it is now, that would be a problem. And that's what it sounded like with the first post referrencing a 1000% increase.

So it's safe to say that Norwegians aren't paying thousands per month in electricity just to drive around their EV's.

 

Yes, that was the point I was trying to get answered. If you see the chart, the summer of 2020 wholesale rate is almost zero. If you were getting a $0.01/kWh electric rate and that was raised to $0.1/kWh which is a 1000% increase, that is still cheap electricity by most US standards.

 

your chat tells the story in a right direction, roughly. The discussion can go too complicated..
1. The electricity price from the demand side is largely decided by the marginal cost: meaning: for example: if 90% of the electricity can be met by nearly free( or very low cost) hydro, the market price will be decided by the remaining 10% coal or gas power plant.
2. In a small country as Norway, regional electrity price differences can be staggering... In the Northern Norway, price can be very cheap, while southern Norway, higher than Denmark when Denmark generates tons of power from wind..
The actual cost, I tried to not dive into. Heating in the winter is a big cost. In the summer, the KWh is not too high.. so it is still managable, especially given the state subsidy, and that I do not charge my Prius

 

Or in most residential cases, we sign a contract that gives us spot price, which changes from hour to hour.
So I try to not check prices too often. but just a reference: during the 2 coldest winter months my household electricity bill can be as high as 800 (or more) US dollars, after government subsidy. This number is largely affected by 1 house building condition, 2. the way you heat your house. Some household uses wood pellet, much cheaper than heater.. 3. I do not own EV In the summer, the bill is just peanuts compared to the winter..

 

indeed, per my previous post, electricity price in Norway has been very low in history. So life is not bad here, compared to our neighboring European countries, salary level is higher (not as high as tech bros in SV), utility is lower. I heard that England (I like Britain!) during the winter life can be tough for some. There, on average the salary is lower, utility has to be "topped-up" before hand, unlike here we pay a monthly bill, determined by usage and hourly price history

 

My slide rule math says $0.023 per kWh. The difference between mega, 10**6, and kilo, 10**3 is 10**3.

Bob Wilson

 

Thanks for filling in. As foreign as Norway is to me, there seem to be some common grounds I can see on our quest for clean and cheap energy.

What sort of heating do you use? Is it all electric? I consider electricity/gasoline/heating oil in the same energy category for the budgeting purpose. We do not have natural gas lines, so the heating is mainly by cordwood, pellet wood, and heating oil. Some homes around me have propane heating and many are considering conversion to all-electric heat pumps. I did extensive searching and got quotes from several vendors to get our home converted to clean heat pump heating from a dirty inefficient oil boiler system. But it just does not make financial sense to jump on the bandwagon.

When the heating oil price hit $6/gal last winter, the most efficient heat pump would theoretically beat the cost of the oil boiler for the operating cost at the electric rate last year. But now with oil prices dropping down to $3/gal while the electric rate going up again (three increases in the past 12 mo), even the highest efficiency heat pump will not save any operating cost compared to 30+ years old inefficient oil boilers.

This is very important for any consumers considering BEV purchases. Almost any BEV-promoting articles you read will emphasize the "fuel-cost" saving compared to gasoline cars. This is only true if you happen to live in a region that enjoys relatively cheaper electricity costs. US average residential rate was ~$0.12 until recently. But in 2023, it is getting more like $0.23/kWh nationwide average. But at my home, the rate has been above $0.2/kWh for the last 10+ years and now is above $0.3/kWh. Our region has a higher rate than the rest of the state. With the recently approved rate hike, I know that driving a car with electricity is going to cost more than driving it with gas for me.

 

I use electricity. I think it is very expensive. State-of-act heat pump can be efficient and cheaper, but it costs to establish one.. Wood pellet is the cheapest option for house. Old houses in general requires more heating (less efficient), and if you live in townhouse or apartment building then it should be more efficient in heating, sometimes from central heating system shared with your neighbhours.

 

Rate change by the hour! That's crazy. That would be a nightmare for someone like me who wants to be on top of the electric rate and try to find the cheapest supplier with a fixed rate. When our electric supply de-regulation was still a new thing in our state, I jumped the gun and signed a contract for a year with a supplier that was quoting the cheapest rate at the time of signing the contract. But I failed to read the small print that the rate can vary after 6 mo. I could not get out of the contract without paying a hefty early termination fee, and after 6 mo, the variable rate kicked in and I saw the rate jump 100%. Ever since I have always signed only a fixed rate supplier for electricity. On the other hand, for the heating oil, I have had a very bad experience with locking in the price for the season. So, I don't use a budget plan or lock-in price plan and just go by spot rate as I order similar to the gasoline.

BTW, our highest monthly electric bill on record was $4,854.56. LOL, That was the real bill I received last year from my community solar company. They allocated me 21,147kWh (or 21megawatthour) of electricity they generated on their solar farm onto my bill. It took 6 months to straighten out their mistake. The highest legit monthly electric bill we ever had was this past winter. On the Feb bill, we were billed $495 for 1723kWh of usage.

 

The is precisely what your electricity supplier is paying by on the wholesale market. Your fixed rate is likely higher than the a spot rate for most of the day.

 

Off course, that's how the electric provider makes a profit, most likely a huge profit. But that does not matter to me, or to most US electric consumers who have no option to buy wholesale spot rate electricity. And unlike oil or gasoline, I can't buy the excess amount of electricity at a low price and store it to use later. What matters to me is the stability and predictability of the fixed-rate contract. At least I am paying 20% less than the standard offer rate with my supplier for the next 8 months. And I know what the rate is two months from today. That is easier to manage.

 

I would love that!
Users of power would pay what it costs at that time.
People would have a better understanding of power generation issues.

I believe that would be better for the utilities, customers and the environment.

 

I don't understand how especially for the last one for the environment? TOU rate system is somewhat the next step down not as granular as the hourly rate, but at least dividing the time of use into periods during the day to the corresponding cost of the electricity generation and consumption balance. But I have not heard that has a benefit for the environment. I guess, maybe by making people aware of times of high demand and low supply, it encourages using less energy? But did the TOU system cut down the total consumption of electricity after the system was implemented?

Our utility company introduced a TOU rate system for EV users recently. I looked into it. I have to apply for it and they will have to install the special meter. The discount only applies to distribution costs since our supply cost is de-regulated. Plus to enroll in the TOU rating program, I have to pay a monthly fee to the utility. I did simulated use calculations, if I move the current usage pattern to 50% during off-peak and 20% during the shoulder period, and only 30% during the peak time period, then I can save $12/mo. But, if that shift is only 20% during off-peak and 20% during the shoulder period, and 60% during the peak time period, then TOU will end up costing $11/mo more than the current non-TOU rate. We have no electric heat or cooling, so no big ticket item sucking electricity during the day or night. Except for the use of an L1 charger for charging our PHEV, our electricity use is mostly even all day long. I just did not see that TOU will save me anything. It simply forces the adjustments to restrict the use of high-energy appliances at certain times of day to save the most. So, I guess, we will be cooking after midnight and running a cloth dryer before sunrise to save $12/mo. Not really worth the effort.

 

Well, you could with a battery. Which is exactly how peak shaving, or time shifting, works with TOU. Charge up the battery during low price periods of the day to provide power for use during the peak price times.

Baseline power plants generally shouldn't be shut down during low demand periods. Restarts can lead to things breaking, in addition to the time required. So the boilers are left idling even if the plant isn't producing electricity. Then any electricity made at these times will be at a plant's lower thermally efficiency point. Getting people to shift use to these low demand times, has the plants producing at a more efficient point, and that means less fuel used per kWh made. Texas would idle wind generation in order to keep coal plants working at a minimum level.

Add renewables to the mix, and spot pricing can get people to shift demand to periods of those sources peak production. Which may not line up with regular demand cycles. Otherwise, the electric company has to effectively give the energy away, or not utilize the source.

So even if these pricing plans don't encourage less kWh consumption, they can encourage more efficient use of the 'fuels' making those kWh. I think a study of California's grid with TOU plans in place, does show this.