Tesla Sand Bagging the Model 3 Again?

"We hit zero at about 268..."

And that's at 65mph.

 

No, the display did during the time-lapse of a portion of his driving (52 seconds into the video).

Huh?

Other way around - I'm the grid engineer contradicting that.

You said, "First, it was under selling how far - over 300 miles - that the 3 will actually go."

I answered that statement with a driver report.[/quote][/quote]

 

Trying, but I don't know what, "your imaginary 65mpg claim" meant.

 

"mpg" does not equal "mph".

 

You said that I said something about 65 miles per gallon ("your imaginary 65mpg claim"), which makes no sense since I said nothing like that. I see now that you probably meant 65 miles per hour and just messed up on the typing.

 

Let me guess - you're not a native English speaker.

I'm the one saying the grid is fine - and even that EVs can help it - and your post still says "mpg" instead of "mph".

Clear enough?

 

How much does he want for that obviously defective Model 3?

Bob Wilson

 

These range claims are usually over-blown, not under sold. That's because they assume:

• Full charge, when most of the time you are supposed to charge to 90% or less.
• The right tire and wheel combination for efficiency.
• Moderate temperatures.
• Ideal conditions (not too much wind, not too high a speed).

The problem is, that's not very "real world" for most out-of-town trips. Probably 1 in 5 of my out-of-town trips are in conditions like that. This year only I had a trip where the car was left in -5°F temperatures for 6 hours and we didn't get in to go home after dark, I drove across Utah in an 80mph zone with 35mph cross winds and 100°F temperatures and I drove nearly 700 miles between supercharger stations after having to go back because a road was closed by a forest fire, fed by high winds and hot temperatures. That's real-world stuff. The claimed ranges are usually far higher than what you get in more common (and less optimal) conditions. I have family in Kansas City who I've visited probably 15 or more times in my life and I can remember 1 of those ~30 trips where I *didn't* have a heavy cross wind.

 

"Your Mileage Will Vary
EPA fuel economy estimates are based on standardized tests designed to reflect "typical" driving conditions and driver behavior, but several factors can affect MPG significantly:

• How & where you drive
• Vehicle condition & maintenance
• Fuel variations
• Vehicle variations
• Engine break-in

Therefore, the EPA ratings are a useful tool for comparing the fuel economies of different vehicles but may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get.

To find out what you can do to improve the fuel economy of your car, visit our gas tips pages:

• Driving More Efficiently
• Keeping Your Car in Shape
• Tips for Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids, and Electric Vehicles
• Fuel Economy in Cold Weather
• Fuel Economy in Hot Weather

How Vehicles Are Tested
Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a series of tests specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 15%–20% of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.

Estimating MPG with Laboratory Tests
In the laboratory, the vehicle's drive wheels are placed on a machine called a dynamometer. The "dyno" simulates the driving environment much like an exercise bike simulates cycling.

Engineers adjust the amount of energy required to move the rollers to account for wind resistance and the vehicle's weight.


On the dyno, a driver runs the vehicle through standardized driving routines called cycles or schedules. These cycles simulate "typical" trips in the city or on the highway.

See video


Each cycle specifies the speed the vehicle must travel during each second in the test.

Photo: The driver watches a display that shows his driving speed compared to the specified cycle.

See video


Measuring Fuel Use
For vehicles using carbon-based fuels (e.g., gasoline, diesel, natural gas, etc.), a hose is connected to the tailpipe to collect the engine exhaust during the tests.

The carbon in the exhaust is measured to calculate the amount of fuel burned during the test. This is more accurate than using a fuel gauge.

A different method is used for vehicles that run on non-carbon fuels, such as fuel cell vehicles and electric vehicles.





Detailed Test Information
EPA tests vehicles by running them through a series of driving routines, also called cycles or schedules, that specify vehicle speed for each point in time during the laboratory tests.

For 2007 and earlier model year vehicles, only the city and highway schedules were used. Beginning with 2008 models, three additional tests are used to adjust the city and highway estimates to account for higher speeds, air conditioning use, and colder temperatures.

EPA has established testing criteria for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that are slightly different than those for conventional vehicles.


City: Represents urban driving, in which a vehicle is started with the engine cold and driven in stop-and-go rush hour traffic.


Highway: Represents a mixture of rural and Interstate highway driving with a warmed-up engine, typical of longer trips in free-flowing traffic.


High Speed: Represents city and highway driving at higher speeds with more aggressive acceleration and braking.


Air Conditioning: Account for air conditioning use under hot outside conditions (95°F sun load).


Cold Temperature:Tests the effects of colder outside temperatures on cold-start driving in stop-and-go traffic.

• Test Details"

"Therefore, the EPA ratings are a useful tool for comparing the fuel economies of different vehicles but may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get."

All of the above quoted from http://www.fueleconomy.gov

 

This is an example of taking information out of context to give the wrong impression. Ben Sullins, the guy in the video, has modified his car with a number of aftermarket products, chiefly 20" non-aero aftermarket rims with "high performance" tires. The model 3 is rated at 310 miles at 65 mph with standard 18" rims and Low Rolling Resistance tires. When Ben added the much heavier rims and less efficient tires he knew he was going to take a hit on range. People who have modified their cars in this manner are reporting a 10% to 15% loss of range. So if you chose to modify ANY car in this way, be prepared to pay the price in range. People who have modified their Prii in this manner are also reporting similar loss of range whether in electric or gasoline mode.

These are the same variables that affect ICE mpg predictions.

 

<AHEM>
I drive efficiently (not "hypermiling"!) and modify my cars for higher efficiency.

Gen-1 Prius (2001-03 Prius)


Gen-3 Prius (2010-2015 Prius)

One tank, not fully topped off.

My standard mods:

1. low rolling resistance tires at maximum sidewall
2. tune front and rear wheels for minimum camber and toe
3. drain and replace transmission oil early
4. radiator block as practical
5. maximum use of cruise control
6. shift to "N" when practical

Bob Wilson

 

Under truly ideal conditions, a model 3 has a range of more than 600 miles.
nextmove stellt neue Hypermiling Reichweitenrekorde auf - nextmove
Hypermiling Records - nextmove


Under ideal conditions, the Model 3 also has a higher peak power than in the official specifications. But just like ICE vehicles, the maximum power measured on a dynamometer is not always available under all actual driving conditions.

However, like the Prius, the Model 3 also has a comparatively very simple transmission(s) without multiple mechanical gear ratios. This limits the power available at the wheels at certain speeds a little more than with multiple mechanical ratio transmissions.

Both Toyota and Tesla have opted to adjust the official power specifications to reflect more accurately the power available under various conditions, and make it more comparable with the available vs. rated power of ICE autos.

 

That is correct, you can modify your car for good effects or bad effects. The model 3 in question was modified with larger, heavier rims and much less efficient tires for bad effects to range.

I applaud you for exercising good techniques to minimize use of gasoline. One thing of note is that you achieved over 90 mpg over 1000 miles by driving 22 mph average. Slowing down will generally always increase range. We average as much as 70 mpg per tankful driving around 55 mph average with frequent altitude changes of 2500' to 4000'. We "hypermile" when practical. Our 2012 PIP is essentially stock and we travel with a payload that varies from one person to two people and a dog.[/QUOTE]

 

But it matters a whole lot less on a car with an EPA-stated 640 mile range that can "recharge" almost anywhere in 3 minutes.

I've driven my Prime over 570 miles on a tank (all gasoline) in pretty non-ideal conditions (lots of 75mph in 15-20mph cross winds with a full car and A/C set at 68°F with 100°F outside temps) and still had 90 miles remaining (not including electric range) so it seems to me that "underselling" isn't limited to Tesla. It's just that BEVs suffer more range loss in lousy conditions than ICE cars do - especially in cold conditions. How much range does a Model 3 have in -5°F temperatures? The Prime is still over 500 miles.