1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Tesla Sand Bagging the Model 3 Again?

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by hill, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    464
    402
    0
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    p.s., I've never been much of an early adopter. Please note this car interior: Crank window, manual shift, and no power locks. Only options are AM/FM cassette, air conditioning, and cruise control. As I said earlier, the Prius was a huge change for me.
    upload_2018-9-7_18-27-22.png
     

    Attached Files:

  2. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Friday night drive home from work and don't spend any time filling up. Plug your BEV in at your garage, spend the evening the way you want. Wake up in the morning with 310 miles range. Plug in again on Saturday evening. Wake up on Sunday morning with another 310 miles of range. Total for the weekend is 620 miles of range. Zero time filling up. Take Mom to a restaurant two States over if you wish. No range anxiety, no need to stop for charging.
     
  3. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    464
    402
    0
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Plug in where Saturday evening? Do I run a 110V extension cord under mom's garage door? Also, many times we'll leave the pets at home and go down and back in one day. 300-350 miles round trip depending on exact route and how many side trips we take.

    The funny thing is, if I were in the market for a new car a BEV would fit 80% of my driving needs, and since it wouldn't be my only car that would be okay. The only reason I'm arguing is because I'm hearing that a BEV can do everything my current ICE car can do, which is patently false.
     
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Elon's motto seems to be "over-promise and under-deliver", at least when it comes to scheduling. I was at a talk by him in January of 2009 when he said SpaceX would be recovering boosters by that summer (2009). Tihe first one was recovered December 22, 2015. 6 months planned, 6 1/2 years actual.

    The achievement isn't the issue, it's the over-promising that is. Hard task so don't plan for instant and easy success.

    If you ever did that, you were entirely wrong. Remember, you have to get back too. Yeah, you could get there, but stranding your car there and walking back doesn't seem wise.

    The issue is the round trip from the Las Vegas, NM supercharger to the Carlsbad Caverns (totally worth the trip, by the way) and back. I stayed over night in Artesia, NM, went to a couple of restaurants and did some shopping. I also went to Roswell, NM on the way back for the art museum that, oddly, also contains Robert Goddard's work shop, recreated inside. Very cool. Look him up if you don't know his name (which everyone should, IMHO).
     
  5. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I filled up in Montrose, CO on June 9th, drove to Denver, and didn't fill up again until last Saturday when I went on a 130 mile each way out-of-town trip. Got home with 3/4 of a tank showing. I don't expect to fill up again, probably until after the holidays.
     
  6. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    No one is arguing that a BEV can do everything that and ICE can do, there are some edge cases. It is also patently false to argue that an ICE can do everything a BEV can do.
     
  7. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    260 miles on a 1/4 tank of gas? That is truly amazing! Over 1000 miles of range on a tank of gas. What size is that gas tank, about 50 gallons?
     
  8. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Yeah, I laid out the itinerary for you, you just didn't read it.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Elon's SpaceX was also an R&D as he accomplished something that only the Space Shuttle accomplished . . . reusable rocket engines and Elon added their rocket bodies. Just the shuttle was a little too close to the leading edge with two crews lost. Elon didn't step immediately into the Falcon 9, block 5, the first rocket that appears to have a turnaround time measured in days, not months. Of course, he had to deal with a few bugs:


    Bob Wilson
     
    #149 bwilson4web, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    11.3 gallons. And one battery charge on L1 at my destination.
     
  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Show me. I saw one coming from the east, not from the north like I said.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Very rarely, if ever, does anyone actually say that.
    This whole thing comes down to fractions of the market.
    For fraction X, a BEV will work 100% of the time.
    For fraction Y, it won’t and the buyer lives in a one car household and/or they aren’t willing to use the second car.

    Are there people in both groups? Absolutely.
    How big is each group? That is the only question.

    What pushes my butttons is when people make specific points about why an BEV doesn’t work for them, and then generalizes it to why BEVs aren’t ready for people in general.
     
  13. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Well lets do the math. 1/4 of 11.3 is 2.8 gallons of gas. One charge on a Prime will get you about 25 miles. So assuming you started with a full charge, that would be a total of 50 miles. So if we subtract 50 from your 260 miles, that leaves 210 miles covered with 2.8 gallons of gas or 75 mpg on gasoline with four passengers or 93 mpg combined. That has to be some sort of record for a Prime. EPA's combined estimate is 54 mpg for the Prime. Was it all downhill with a tailwind?
     
  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,604
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    what's a cassette .......

    .
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    In this we agree but modeling would be an interesting challenge. It would take the whole USA EIS database; the current SuperCharger, CHAdeMO, and NEMA 14-50 database; population density, and; a model of USA trip density. Alternatively, we could analyze specific cases.

    Trust there are edge cases, individuals who know their travel requirements, who use open databases and know they won't be able to make some of their timely trips in a BEV. Now I prefer PlugShare because of the user feedback and painful experiences with proprietary maps. For example, @Team ChargePoint has a map showing three L2 chargers in Huntsville: "The Ave Station" is in a keycard parking garage; BMW Century is business hours only, and; Element Westin is 24x7.

    As a general rule, these are going to be in the center of areas bounded by the charging network. In my case, Stillwater OK and @Lee Jay it is Carlsbad NM.
    Once the low fuel light comes on, the car still has another gallon in reserve bringing it up to 3.8 gallons, 210/3.8 = 55 MPG. My experience is this mean has variability +/- 5 MPG. The Prius Prime in real life is an amazing hybrid thanks to the depth of charge. Then there is the non-linear gas gauge indicator.

    When I drive cross country, I use MPG and tripmeter miles to calculate the amount to fuel remaining. It is a habit I picked up as a private pilot and means the fuel gauge can (and should) be ignored. Running out of fuel while flying is not a good idea.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #155 bwilson4web, Sep 8, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  16. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    So what you are saying is that @Lee Jay boast that his gas gauge shows 3/4 tank left after a drive of 260 miles is meaningless?

    A Tesla "fuel" gauge can show miles left or percent of charge left. Using miles left can be meaningless due to elevation changes, rate of speed, environmental conditions, etc. Percent of charge left gives a more accurate prediction of remaining "fuel."

    Driving a BEV is a lot like flying or operating a long range boat. With some simple planning, you can go almost anywhere, just like an ICE.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Not a 'boast' as much as realization a gas gauge is a poor way to measure fuel consumed. Topping off a previously full tank is the 'gold standard.' Next, use MPG and and trip meter. Imprecise, the fuel tank gauge.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Then let me put it another way. I still have 350 miles of gas-only range remaining before getting into the ~1.3 gallon (80 mile) reserve, after driving the car 270 miles.
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  19. el Crucero

    el Crucero Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    1,628
    698
    0
    Location:
    Inland Empire
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    How do you know if you have 350 miles left if the gas gauge is undependable? On a 4000 mile range boat, fuel remaining is measured on a calibrated sight gauge.
     
  20. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,850
    4,017
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    It's called math.

    260 miles at a recorded 75mpg average = 3.5 gallons used.

    11.3 gallon tank - 1.3 gallon reserve - 3.5 gallons consumed = 6.5 gallons remaining without reserve.

    6.5 gallons × 56mpg average = 364 miles without reserve or electricity.

    I rounded down a bit to be conservative.