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Tesla Trumps Toyota

Discussion in 'Fuel Cell Vehicles' started by Trollbait, Jul 1, 2015.

  1. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    Even troll baiters have to eat. FCV FTW.
     
  2. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    The most important thing about FCV is the genius inventor Milo Dusk who also owns the underwater exploration company Xpace S. He is thought to be another Ironman in the flesh, with quirky behavior and odd habits like openly using illegal sugar and caffine suppositories to boost personal energy. In a bold move, he declared he would take the FCV firm H2oh! private at $4.21 per share (funding secured).
     
  3. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    Getting off fossil fuels in not the goal of EVs. 60% of the US electrical energy used EACH day is from the burning of fossil fuels.
     
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And batteries and public charging continues to improve.

    Toyota's home country is one of the few in which hydrogen cars might be a better option than plug ins. Instead of adapting their strategy and product mix for the other markets where that isn't so, they are trying to export hydrogen cars to.

    @FL_Prius_Driver had two points.
    1. An individual has options when it comes fueling their plug in car. If they want to use renewable electric, they can for most. That simply isn't possible with hydrogen and gasoline. Consumers are at the mercy of government regulations and the market on whether those fuels contain any renewable portion.
    2. Then the majority of renewable hydrogen relies on renewable electric. Using that electricity in plug ins is easier, and would provide more vehicle miles.
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Hmmm. really
    then later ....
    ....snip......
    https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle
    .
     
  6. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

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    Five years later and FCV's still appear to suffer from at least these drawbacks:
    Also, the articles do a good job of summarizing why EVs will beat out FCVs. Too bad Toyota still feels the need to throw money down the FCV drain.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Technically, those aren't problems of FCEVs, they are problems of using hydrogen for fuel.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    actually - Totota R&D are not stupid. The fool cell lobby's job is to assure as little of toyota's (et al) cash is tossed down tha hydrogen black hole as possible ... whether it's running negative electric car ads, or assuring electric car incentives are way less than hydrogen cars, or trying to force big oil to build the trillion-dollar hydrogen Highway (that failed) .... and of course - when Big Oil sued to stop them from being forced to build it, they decided to do their agenda on the back of the taxpayers;
    Motorists to foot bill for California’s touted ‘hydrogen highway’ – Daily News
    It's easy to throw money down the drain - when it's someone else's.
    .
     
    #68 hill, May 31, 2019
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  9. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

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    Is there a non-hydrogen FCV fuel that doesn't also suffer from those problems?

    My understanding that the only viable alternative right now is natural gas (in a SOFC), but that still suffers from #5, #6, and #7.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Nissan's FCEV runs on 55% or 100% ethanol in a SOFC. Testing was done in Brasil where the fuel is already available. It could be be adapted for gasoline or diesel.

    Reposting for reference
    4. High fueling cost (compared to gasoline)
    5. Limited fuel stations (the chicken and egg problem)
    6. Improvements in the competition
    7. Problems delivering cost-effective emissions reductions

    #4 - Hydrogen's high cost is because of the equipment and energy requirements to fill a 10,000psi tank. California also mandates a portion be renewable, whichs adds to the price. Other alternative fuels are in the gasoline and diesel price range, and most of them can also run an engine without as much compromise as using hydrogen.

    #5 - An issue for nearly every alternative fuel, but is something we need to start working on, and it will be easier to start switching with engines than trying to do so while also trying to foster a new technology.
    There are far more CNG stations in the country than hydrogen, and the reach of the NG distribution network means building more should be as easy and cost as much as a gas station.
    Require more flex-fuel engines, while letting methanol also be used.
    Then engined cars car support the spread of stations supplying these fuels. Once they are widespread, then you introduce the FCEVs.

    The same could be done with hydrogen. The costs to do so are just far greater. There are numerous private fleets of CNG vehicles out there. They don't use hydrogen because of the higher costs and lower efficiency in an engine.

    #6 & #7 - Are issues for all FCEVs, but are even ones for other technologies. Hybrids are still getting beat by traditional cars in the US.

    My prediction is that we won't see widespread use of fuel cells in cars until they can compete with an ICE generator for a range extender in a plug in.
     
  11. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Every variation of transportation has a lobby.