Tesla vertical integration

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by bwilson4web, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    23,358
    13,156
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL with 2014 BMW i3-REx
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    When Tesla started, they got burned more than once by suppliers being late and/or delivering inferior product. In effect, starting their business, they found suppliers were not really interested in their business and insisted on no-flex payment. It stuck.

    In contrast, the OEMs seem to believe they can get as many batteries as they want from subcontractors. Only they didn't notice their 'honorable competition' were standing in line already. In effect, the battery critical resource isn't available. The same exists for other EV parts 'out-sourced' by OEMs. . . . To quote Pink Floyd:

    Welcome my son, welcome to the machine
    Where have you been?
    It's alright, we know where you've been

    You've been in the pipeline filling in time
    Provided with toys and 'Scouting for Boys'

    You brought a guitar to punish your ma
    And you didn't like school
    And you know you're nobody's fool

    So welcome to the machine
    Welcome my son, welcome to the machine
    What did you dream?
    It's…

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,058
    39,257
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    In all honesty, I think the legacy makers find it to be a convenient excuse to advance as slowly as possible
     
    markabele likes this.
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Refusing to look at the bigger picture is the nature of online venues. A forum will push, with strong support of their enablers, a narrative based on omissions or cherry-picking to stir discussions. That's the nature of our primary means of spreading information. It's really unfortunate.

    Tesla has done a wonderful job of the consumer/product issues up front. There's lots of good things to say about those efforts. What isn't said is the blind-eye turned on their shortcomings with regard to sales. The most basic step of trading in your existing vehicle to purchase a new doesn't exist. There is no dealership to serve that purpose. That's a show-stopper for a lot of people.

    From the days before Volt was even rolled out, we saw legacy automaker's having even more of a problem with dealerships. They simply didn't want to support plug-in vehicles... and still don't. That's an absolutely vital step in vertical integration. Having a great product doesn't result in sales if dealers are unwilling to sell them. I get mocked routinely from individuals even here on this forum when I bring up that problem, especially when sighting the example of GM.

    The point is, we're all in this together and a barrier anywhere along the way must be addressed. Each automaker has challenges. Ignoring them hurts everyone. Addressing them helps everyone. So, it astounds me how many continue to fight for "superiority" when the goals of emission & consumption reduction are shared among everyone.
     
    #3 john1701a, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  4. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    4,960
    2,977
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    This is simply not the case.
    Tesla takes trade-ins when you are buying a new car from them.

    No John, you don’t. Many people, especially anyone that has shopped for a Volt, would agree with you that dealers are a big part of the problem.

    The mental gymnastics you go through to show how a 4 seat car is a disaster when GM does it, and is a great idea when Toyota does it is where you may sense negativity. Or your word salad, we all remember the meaningless phrase ‘know your audience’ you use without context over and over again.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,058
    39,257
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Tags: volt, GM
     
    fotomoto likes this.
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,058
    39,257
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    And a lesson in, “how to completely derail a thread in one post”
     
  7. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,288
    1,633
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Those that "know their audience" know that actual Tesla buyers know this isn't true, therefore it hasn't been a show-stopper.
    People probably think this is true because they asked a dealer for another brand.

    Trade-Ins | Tesla

    Mike
     
    Raytheeagle and john1701a like this.
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    23,358
    13,156
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL with 2014 BMW i3-REx
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I turned in my Prime where I got my Model 3.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Prodigyplace and john1701a like this.
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I didn't know there was a trade-in program, so I appreciate the constructive reply.

    For those who still don't get it though... and you know who you are... I was well aware there would be vague, misleading, and cherry-picked comments attempting to undermine the overall message.

    Fortunately, that experience & observations some of us have will drown out the noise from pointless online battles. New topics, like vertical integration, help expose those patterns. Keep it up.
     
    3PriusMike likes this.
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Speaking of patterns, notice how the theme of "ahead" keeps coming up for Tesla? Typically, being the leader in front is a good thing. The catch is not capitalizing on it. We've watched Apple struggle to grow marketshare beyond their faithful followers. We've watched GM totally blow it with Volt, never being able to reach beyond conquest sales. So, it makes sense keeping an eye on Tesla. The effort Tesla is making to diversify is impressive. Combine that with the investment to expand, it certainly is a winning formula... but not a guarantee.

    The thing I always wonder about is with regard to the vertical integration. Battery cells are a great example. How exactly does type & chemistry fit into the equation. Who owns and pays for what? We see a heavy investment in cylindrical batteries, because they can be produced fast & cheap. Is that a good idea in the long-term though? What about the potential for prismatic or pouch? How does recycling fit into the picture?

    Knowing what's at stake, being "ahead" becomes less and less important when doing it right for all involved is taken into consideration. After all, there's a wide variety of needs to address.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    16,230
    6,033
    54
    Location:
    South OC So Cal & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    one can plug the label "Gen 3 Prius" into your sentence - instead of 'before volt rolled out', & you'd be saying the same thing. Stealership sales people want to sell what's ever in their understanding. That said .... i hope someday all of the grief that volt fans tormented you with ..... saying their car "is better" & /or why so ... that somehow you can get past it, instead of reliving it. Those owners, like the Prius C and the Prius V have had to move on to other cars. Move on, often the most advisable / operative words.
    It's not disrespectful to say something about Toyota that's a critique. Even Toyota higher-ups do it regarding their CEO.
    There have been articles quoting their Engineers that say his view on electric cars is childish in light of all of the improvements already on the table.
    As for Toyoda-san being childish ....... & @bwilson4web Pink Floyd quote, Bob, I'll SEE your phrases & raise you with "Comfortably Numb"
    Maybe Toyotda-san's fleeting Glimpse was the future of Electrics - but often we get older and get comfortable.
     
    #11 hill, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
    Zythryn likes this.
  12. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    2,752
    1,150
    0
    Location:
    Sanford, NC
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    I can't remember ever being sold a car in the sense that a person in the dealership suggested I buy car X. I'm rather one to order what I want online and I'm liable to go hundreds of miles to get exactly what I want at the price I want to pay. So in that sense, the Tesla model of low overhead sales fits my needs and wants perfectly.

    On another forum for another brand, a guy was bemoaning that he didn't get an hour long lecture from his salesperson on how all the controls worked and how to set everything up. Me I had read the manual and beyond pairing my phone and setting my GPS endpoint for a 350 mile trip back home the same day, I just drove and fooled around until everything was what I wanted. Would I have remembered 10% of the lecture? No, I learn from hands on. And I'm not willing to pay the overhead necessary to have someone hold my hand.

    Different people have different needs and wants.
     
    3PriusMike likes this.
  13. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    There was no grief and the point is to prevent history from repeating.

    My push to them all along was to get GM to actually do something with their tech, spreading it to other vehicles. GM did not. Toyota is. See the difference and why no grief? Also, do you see the pattern repeating with Bolt?

    As great as Tesla is, those actions taken don't provide a path for legacy automakers to follow... hence the continued push.
     
  14. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    6,517
    2,947
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2014 Chevy Volt
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,058
    39,257
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    tags: gm, bolt, volt
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    88,058
    39,257
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    apples market cap is 1.3 trillion dollars, and their stock price is over 300 dollars. (n)
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    23,358
    13,156
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL with 2014 BMW i3-REx
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Slight editorial update:

    When I was a child
    I caught a fleeting glimpse
    Out of the corner of my eye
    I turned to look but Tesla gone

    I cannot put my finger on it now
    The coulomb grown
    The dream is gone

    And I have become
    Coulomb and a nut

    Bob Wilson
     
    hill likes this.
  18. Fred_H

    Fred_H Misoversimplifier

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    484
    409
    22
    Location:
    Germany
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Reminds me of the beginning of the history of the Prius. There were many attempts by other manufacturers to make "eco" cars around that time. But after the first or second iteration which weren't financially successful within a few years, they gave up because "The current technology is not yet good enough". (What all manufacturers really mean when they say that is "Our technology is not yet good enough".)

    Toyota, like Tesla, didn't give up. There was someone at the top with enough clout to overrule the bean counters, and continue to pursue the goal. The technologies which at the time weren't available in sufficient quality were developed, and to varying extent, partly manufactured in house, or in close cooperation with suppliers in joint ventures.

    Tesla's initially costly vertical integration which was born out of necessity to even survive, has now turned in to a competitive advantage in cost and especially in speed of development and manufacturing. The speed factor is especially important in order to catch up to Toyota.
     
    Zythryn, bwilson4web and Prodigyplace like this.
  19. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    11,060
    10,686
    0
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    You have been very fortunate. I went to my local dealer to see and hopefully drive a Gen 4 Prius before likely buying elsewhere. The local dealer focused on trying to sell me a used Camry Hybrid. They also claimed I could not get a Trim Two with other than black interior. They would not budge on price so I saved thousands by buying form a Gen 1 Prius owner. He spent 30 minutes instructing on the car before a test drive.

    Before that I had purchase a Corolla from where the Prius owner works but from a different salesman. He actually gave me false instructions when explaining how to use the tire pressure monitoring system.

    Having no instruction is better than false instruction.
     
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    11,860
    4,586
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    It does make you wonder how much bad information is responsible for lost sales. With inventory so low at legacy automakers, the learning process for salespeople is impaired... quite the opposite from Tesla.
     
Loading...