The Chevrolet Volt.

Why not Toyota buy GM?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jan 6 2007, 11:02 PM) [snapback]371981[/snapback]</div>

You read my mind. The announcement sounded interesting at first, but as soon as I heard that it's a "concept car", I just laughed.

Come back and talk to us when they're on dealer lots. Otherwise GM needs to knock-off the marketing hype and get working...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LaughingMan @ Jan 7 2007, 02:41 PM) [snapback]372136[/snapback]</div>

This is standard operating procedure.

If we criticize the President, we are Unpatriotic.

If we criticize the war we are traitors.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 7 2007, 12:41 PM) [snapback]372167[/snapback]</div>

excellent point....

my take??

get rid of gm... their talented workers can be utilized to maximum benefit elsewhere

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 7 2007, 03:16 PM) [snapback]372152[/snapback]</div>

I didn't say that either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveG @ Jan 7 2007, 02:36 PM) [snapback]372163[/snapback]</div>

There's more.

Look closely at the publicity photos. See the fancy curved windows? How the heck do you go through a drive-thru with them, or for that matter simply drive with the window down? And does the distortion cause any unfavorable visual effect as things pass by or light catches them?

What looks really cool at first may turn out to be not all that practical/appealing.

 

First thing that catches my eye is the relatively large frontal area. A big squared-off grille? Park this thing next to an EV1 and it'll look like an RV.

The whole "calling it a hybrid" thing is interesting. They want you to think of it as an electric car. See, GM didn't kill the EV when it smashed the EV1. That was just a little false start. Just practice for the REAL EV that also burns gas. :sigh:

Hey, if they can build it to the specs given, and at the "low price point" hinted at, I'll be all over it. In a heartbeat. And I think I'll be standing in line to get one. I wonder if they'll start working on these right after they sell their 1 millionth Fuel Cell Vehicle.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Jan 7 2007, 12:23 AM) [snapback]371969[/snapback]</div>

I do agree that it is a great concept. It is basically a series hybrid. The real question is ... have they patented the design? It is important because if Toyota or Honda beat them on the patent, it doesn't matter who shows the concept first.

When they finally have the battery, will the warrenty be as good as the Prius battery pack, which is 10 years, 150,000 miles? It is a critical issue because most of the miles on this car is going to rack up on the battery pack. If it goes 40 miles per charge, the battery pack should be able to handle 3,750 recharges, assuming no memory effect or capacity degration. Their minimal goal should be 4,000 recharge cycles or more.

Another question is, how much will it cost to replace the 400 lbs battery pack? Current Prius pack is about 100 lbs. How will the gas engine cope with infrequent usage? And the oil change intervals?

Doesn't EPA require the ICE to come within 10 sec of powering the car on? I thought that was the reason US Prius doesn't have the EV switch. Maybe Volt can get away with this requirement because they are calling it an electric vehicle instead of a hybrid.

I can not wait to see Toyota's implementation of PHEV or the next Prius. It will be interesting to see how HSD evolve or a completely new design (series hybrid) from Toyota.

Dennis

 

Range 640 miles. I can't link to the article now so I don't remember if it carries 10 or 12 gallons of gas. So it gets 53-64mpg. That's really impressive!

Note to Chevy: Take your R&D money and license the Prius from Toyota. They already deliver what your vaporware promises.

When the employees of a company design and build an inferior product they deserve the unemployment line.

Note to Mr. GM sympathizer: Are you willing and able to come and fix my Intrigue? Mind you, I'm not going to pay you as these are warranty items.

 

GM's business model hasn't worked for the last twenty years. It doesn't matter if we pray for them at this point, if they don't get their stuff together soon they'll be gone. No big loss in the business world, someone else will pick up the slack, that's why capitalism works. GM's future business plan better be more than dream vehicles or it's going to be a sad day in Detroit someday. By the way, I own a GM diesel truck and a Prius. If Americans produce the product, I'll buy it, if they don't I'll go elsewhere.

 

Under ideal conditions, 60-miles of driving is what will yield the quoted 150 MPG result. Wind, hills, cold air, wet roads, other traffic, using the heater or A/C, driving at excessive speeds, blended fuel, passenger/cargo weight, etc. all reduce efficiency... as Prius enthusiasts are already well aware of. For 80 miles, the ideal is 100 MPG. When constantly charging during sustained operation, 50 MPG is listed. So if you don't plug-in often, don't expect stellar efficiency.

How in the world would they properly promote this type of vehicle without setting up false expectations?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Topgas @ Jan 7 2007, 08:08 PM) [snapback]372258[/snapback]</div>

Not to pick on you as I heard this sentiment mentioned several time on this thread, but we don't live in a capitalist society and no way GM is going down. The feds (both parties!) will move heaven and earth and taxpayers money to prop up GM. I predict a series of
- loan guarantees (cf Chrysler)
- subsidies (taking over health care, pensions),
- protectionist commerce laws (DOE research consortiums)
- tax breaks (the mfgrs cap on the hybrid tax credit)
- anti-union court rulings

In short, if you like the post office or AMTRAK, you'll love the new GM.

"What's good for GM is good for America" - Charles Wilson, CEO GM, Sec of Defense

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 7 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]372158[/snapback]</div>

Some of you never cease to amaze me. Don't forget GM sells more cars and trucks in th US than any other manufacturer and sells more cars and trucks in the world than any other manufacturer. I can't believe some of you are so enamored with Toyota. Believe me their time is near, they will plateau and falter very soon. The Tundra is a bomb waiting to go off. Business is momentum and Toyota is just about to hit the wall.

GM acts like the General of its hometown show.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...=emaildetroit07

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 7 2007, 10:54 PM) [snapback]372324[/snapback]</div>

I don't own any GM stock so I don't have the answers. Is GM losing money because their fixed costs are too high, their variable costs (costs of production) are too high, or their overhead is too high? From the tone of your post it doesn't seem like a problem with their product as lots of Americans buy lots of it.

Toyota, as will any large entity, will eventually become "too big", and quality will slide. When that happens I believe a Chinese company will replace them. The Chinese have resources, work cheap, and can be meticulous. I remember seeing an article somewhere that their copy of someone's car was too perfect. All of the parts between the two brands were interchangeable.

 

numbers of cars sold is only a small part of the equation. last year i saw an article that told about the average discount on the sale of an automobile. now granted this was when gm was doing their employee priced sale incentives, but Toyota's average discount was about $300, gm was $9,000

so in short, gm is not selling cars, they are bribing people to take them off their hands. i also laugh at the pickup truck sales by gm and ford because i know how they get those huge numbers. i bought one of those fleet sale pickups from ford several years ago. still have it.

 

Well Toyota may fall, but the last time I checked, their market share and profits were up, while GM is headed in the other direction and falling a lot quicker.

I hate what GM management and the UAW is doing, but there are tens of thousands of good people bundled with the scumbags. As the US manufacturing sector shrinks, so does the middle class, the standard of living, and political moderation. While it's not very realistic, converting some GM plants to Toyota sounds better than just chaining and padlocking them. Some of you might want to chat with people in Michigan about the impact of the domestic auto industry is impacting them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 7 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]372242[/snapback]</div>

You mean like ten years ago? You don't seriously think they're *really* waiting for a battery do you? They could have built this car TEN YEARS ago with existing NIMH batteries. Toyota could have done it. GM could have beaten them to it. The car would maybe have 25 miles of EV range instead of 40. But it could be made, and we could be testing it in the real world. The idea of "waiting for the batteries" is just crap. The batteries in my EV were developed 12+ years ago. We have cars with 10+ years on them, and over 150k miles on these batteries. And there is NO ICE backup. We run these things dry, recharge them and do it again. And again.

Good lord, I hope not. That would mean I've been in violation of that requirement for the past six years. My EVs NEVER fire the ICE. I hope nobody catches me polluting!

 

They had this on the news this morning. At this time of year, the local news goofballs are basically one big cheerleading outfit for the American car companies. It's rather boring for the most part. However, the story on the Volt as it was reported this morning is that it goes 40 miles on the battery which would work for me. The one liter gas engine is there for backup. They claim that it will be available in four years. Ouch. Considering that most of us would probably wait a few years while GM tries to get rid of all of the glitches and the car is recalled a half dozen times, I doubt that I'll buy one but I hope that they're successful.

As for the criticism angle, I've listened to GM for decades. It's difficult to avoid it in Detroit. If someone within GM criticizes them, they say that he or she is a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind so they're not going to pay any attention to them. If someone outside of GM criticizes them, they say that he or she is an outsider who doesn't know anything about GM and doesn't know what they're talking about so they're not going to pay any attention to them. The bottom line is that GM doesn't listen to criticism. They never have and they never will. Most of us on this forum who criticize GM have been burned by them enough times that we got tired of it; got tired of GM's indifference and we went elsewhere. We're not rooting for GM's demise. It's up to GM whether they live or die. So far, they seem to want to die. We're just watching in fascinated horror as they do it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 7 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]372242[/snapback]</div>

There are two great things about going with a series-hybrid layout....

First, it is 100 years old technology, so there is no need to pay royalties to Honda or Toyota (or lose face) for infringing on their parallel-hybrid patents, and no engine/motor powersplit R&D or manufacturing money is required.

Second, by using a series configuration, the ICE is released from its painful design constrictions requiring it to be driveable at all rpms when connected to the wheels. This means a dramatic increase in engine efficiency can be achieved (think from 30% to 50%), which more than pays back the electrical losses of going from genset to battery to motor. Series hybrid can be MORE efficient than parallel designs, regardless of the plug-in option.