The Chevrolet Volt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 9 2007, 12:51 PM) [snapback]373150[/snapback]</div>

As far as I know the spec for an oil-consumption problem is >1qt every thousand miles. I think this is the fact with toyota als. I will find out about your brake problem, I am not familiar with it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 9 2007, 02:55 PM) [snapback]373154[/snapback]</div>

Looks like someone isn't reading consumer reports. Unbiased. They differ w/ you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 9 2007, 02:31 PM) [snapback]373184[/snapback]</div>

Of you can just compare what the two companies spend on warranty costs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 9 2007, 01:35 PM) [snapback]373189[/snapback]</div>

Did you see my earlier post on warrnaty costs? The 2005 figures you were citing, GM would have had about 10.3 million more vehicles under warranty in 2005 than Toyota did, i would hope the warranty expense woul dbe more than double.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]373193[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, missed that one. It still seems to be roughly triple, and I'm pretty sure GM hasn't tripled Toyota's sales in a while now, certainly not in the timeframe 2002 to 2005.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 9 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]373206[/snapback]</div>

GM's U.S. unit sales lead over Toyota Motor Sales
2006: 1,522,816
2005: 2,194,090
2004: 2,595,410
2003: 2,848,469
2002: 3,063,890
2001: 3,121,407
2000: 3,296,552
Note: GM's numbers include Saab

Ballpark numbers but GM had roughly more than double the number of vehicles on the road and under warranty that Toyota did. For reference GM sold roughly double the vehicles toyota did in the US in the calendar year 2005. In 2004 that figure was about 4,800,000 to 2,200,000, In 2003 4,900,000 to 2,100,000. In 2002: 5,000,000 to 2,000,000. So about 18,100,000 to 8,800,000.

 

The numbers I quoted were worldwide, not for US. If you find the warranty cost numbers broken out for the US only, please pass them along, I'm kind of curious myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 9 2007, 01:55 PM) [snapback]373154[/snapback]</div>

Well Jonny, this might shock you into a catatonic state, but I agree 100% with you! In case you didn't know it, I'm very much anti-Corporation. In many ways I have the same attitude towards government and Corporations that forum member Daniel does.

Quite frankly, I could care less if it was GM, Toyota, Wally World, AT&T, whatever. Every Corporation exists to suck as much money out of us as possible, with the least effort possible. Home builders and contractors are another "favorite" of mine. Don't even get me started on *them* or I might pop a vein.

Maybe because I'm built like a nightclub bouncer, I expect things to go my way. If somebody tries to screw me out of my money, they instantly turn me into a vindictive enemy. I'll tell you this much little Jonny, if my Toyota dealer had treated me like yours did, I would have been Toyota's worst enemy. I would have camped out at that dealership, I would have informed every potential customer to stay away from them.

I'm not sure how the consumer protection laws are like where you live. Here in Manitoba a new car has four YEARS under what I guess you'd call a "Lemon Law." See page 11:

http://www.consumermanitoba.ca/guide/chapter_4_CAC.pdf

Eventually, I did have to go through their process and we settled out of court. That's how I turned around and bought my Prius.

Now, if it was up to *me* here is how I would protect consumers:

-Every new car, for the duration of the warranty, would have automatic Lemon Law for minor things. Give the dealer three chances to fix it, if they can't, either give you a new car of similar model, or at *your* option refund you the entire purchase price.

-Every new car would have 10 year Lemon Law for critical safety defects. Things like stalling motors, bad brakes, exploding gas tanks, seat backs that fail and you flop over at highway speed, etc. No second or third chances, automatically refund you the entire purchase price, pronto.

Jonny, I'm not sure if you follow my posts. I'm in no way what you'd call "pro Toyota." I'm a harsh and vocal critic of their "traction control" for one thing. Though it's odd how some folks claim their Prius is like a 4wd on "all season" tires in 2 feet of snow, but without studded snow tires my Prius is helpless on a bit of ice.

I also really complained about the defroster performance in temps of -25 C and colder, especially -30 C and colder. Others were stating they had to turn their heat *down* at that temp, if I don't run a winter front I freeze my pointy bits off. And yes I had them check the thermostat they even replaced it to be sure, no change. So I run the winter front and am toasty warm.

The "sludging" issue. I ran used oil analysis on my Prius, still do, and had really weird results the first time at 16,000km. Sky high Na levels. I had just switched to Mobil 1 and the dealer - and Toyota Canada - naturally blamed Mobil 1. Their own oil had to be "perfect" right??

After chasing a lot of dead ends, the testing lab finally suggested a virgin sample of the dealer oil. Well. I wouldn't run that garbage in a 20 year old Briggs & Stratton lawnmower. Wherever they source their Mystery Blend Bulk Oil Of The Week it even had free moisture, iron, sulfur, and sky high Na.

No kidding a motor will have sludging issues with that crap. I wouldn't trust it past 4,000km myself. But almost every dealer I know of runs a bulk oil dispensing system with the large tote bin out back. So I provided the virgin sample result to the dealer, and Toyota Canada, and suddenly they changed their tune.

So like I said, I leave no stone unturned if I feel I'm being taken advantage of. We should get together for a beer and I can tell some wild adventures I've had with home builders.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 06:36 AM) [snapback]372987[/snapback]</div>

This was determined by the fact that he makes a point you agree with? If I didn't know any better, I'd figure he was just you posting under another name, actually.

Just for a data point - it isn't so much WHAT you say on these boards, but how you say it. Everything comes with a chip on the shoulder. You begin threads with the sole purpose of pissing people off, and inviting them to disagree with you. You answer your own questions in the way you ask them. If you hear a different answer than you wanted, you dismiss it. If it looks like a troll, smells like a troll and sounds like a troll... it just might be one.

That's just how it seems from the cheap seats. Mostly I just skim over your posts so I don't get bogged down in the off-topic chatter.

If GM could have come out with the truth on why they cancelled the EV1 program - or at least the truth on how it was (mis)handled, I might even agree with some of what you say. Do you know anything about that? Or did they handle it right just because they're GM?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]373163[/snapback]</div>

http://www.pistonslap.com

That was my Vortec 5.3: the loud knocking, and yes, GM Canada insisted oil consumption of 1 litre every 1,000km - or about 1 U.S. quart every 600 miles for the Americans in the audience - was perfectly normal. So were the sound effects.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]373163[/snapback]</div>

Yeah son, you look into it. Try looking up TSB TSB 02-05-26-002. Mine also made scraping sounds

So maybe that's why most of the half tons went back to rear drums. I swung by a local Chevy dealer after work and noticed the new 2007's have rear drums. According to GM Canada:

http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/c...0/s900_mode.jsp

Only the Vortec Max now has four wheel disks. Or am I mistaken?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 9 2007, 07:30 PM) [snapback]373354[/snapback]</div>

Well, that's an entirely different topic but we pretty much beat that dead horse with the "Smoke and Mirrors" thread. Try to join something like GM Trucks dot com and knock down a Chevy, they’d ban your entire domain.

I will say this, which is a brief foray into Politics, then leave it alone, never ever to mention it again:

I'm under the impression that Malorn somehow blames every frigging Toyota owner in North America for all that has gone "wrong" with GM and - more importantly - the “American Dream.†Pure crap. China Inc owns about half your debt, and they're even nice enough to float you money to buy more items from China.

Decades of corporate bungling and the thieves in government - both Democrats and Republicans - flushed you down the toilet. Blame them for the mess. Especially the Neoconservatives who controlled the House, Senate, and even the Presidency, why didn’t *they* put a stop to Toyota, and especially China Inc? Hmmm??

Blaming Toyota owners over some "patriotic" claptrap makes as much sense as blaming a woman when the rapist jumps on her and pokes her. Garbage.

Anytime you want to examine real issues you have to be prepared to uncover some rather ugly truths, starting with the person who stares back at you each and every morning when you shave. I'm a mature adult, I deal with it the best way I know how. I don't hide behind my insecurities - yep even big husky men have insecurities - and I sure as hell don't blame others for my problems.

Speaking of politics, sure was something how recently our PM Harper really blasted the Chinese for their human rights record. Who would have thought the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada would be the ones standing up for rights?

Also rather interesting how the Liberals and especially the NDP didn't say a peep about human rights, instead blasting Harper for potentially jepordiziing Canada's trade with China. Like what, China will suddenly pull out of the Tar Sands and make oil out of thin air?? You bet.

Note that former PM Chretien is actively promoting Chinese trade, and he went out of his way during an APEC conference in Vancouver to keep the anti-Chinese protesters in line.

http://origin.www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1998...uver981209.html

So we live in confusing times. What next, dogs and cats sleeping together??

I'm off my political soapbox and the rant is over. Carry on as if your IQ is normal. Thanks!

 

I haven't taken the time to read through 6 pages of this thread so I don't know if anyone else mentioned this yet, but...

I saw a video on AOL about the Chevy Volt, the guy said "With 40 miles of pure electric range most people will never burn a drop of gasoline". So my first thought was, why does it have a gasoline engine at all? Why should people lug around dead weight, go to a gas station, change the oil, change the coolant, etc. when all they have to do is drop a few more batteries in it's place and probably double the range and recharge at home? They could make a trailer-like generator similar to the tZero for long range driving with clean options of bio-diesel, CNG or propane... When will GM ever learn?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 8 2007, 10:48 PM) [snapback]372872[/snapback]</div>

I'm 6'4" and the inseam on my bluejeans is 36", so I have long legs. With the driver's seat on my Prius set for me, I did an experiment. I sat in the rear seat directly behind the driver's seat, and had enough room. I consider that amazingly roomy. In my '99 Civic, I'd have to sit almost completely sideways in the rear seat to fit in that car.

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Jan 10 2007, 10:34 AM) [snapback]373549[/snapback]</div>

And can you move? I've sat in the back seat as an experiment, and guess what... my knees touch the seat. If I were to move around a bit... my knees are massaging someone's kidneys.

Look, I'm not saying the space is small. I just don't think it's as big as people make it out to be. I've hauled 5 adults in the Prius before, and when they got out they had a "space, please more space" look on their face.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jkash @ Jan 9 2007, 12:36 PM) [snapback]373038[/snapback]</div>

Might as well make some money on it. Who'll take 5 to 1 odds .... I'll put $100 that'll say it won't be next year (08) .... or the next. I wonder if GM grasps how repugnant their PR spin is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 10 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]373558[/snapback]</div>

I'll be amazed if GM puts its money where its mouth is on the plug in Saturn.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 9 2007, 06:52 PM) [snapback]373367[/snapback]</div>

I am not attacking the Prius drivers on here as as a whole. I just can't believe how tough people are on here on GM many of which have never owned a GM vehicle but still have a huge chip on their shoulder about GM. Jayman you and several others have had a bad experience with GM and I know it will take a long time to win you back. Again several on here just seem to bash GM and Ford on here becuase it is easy and it is the "cool" thing to do. You have to admit many things are said on here about GM with zero basis in truth.
As GM moves to the forefront of the "green" vehicle movement(and they are as we speak) it will be interesting exactly how long it will take for the cultural elite of this country to acknowledge that.

You are dead on with the politicians selling us out to multi-nationals and foreign countries. Do you really think the US trade situation with Japan and China is purely coincidence or part of a plan coming in part form the highest levels of governement. Unfortunately it may come to war one of these days. I for one hope not but I would guess China is not currently in the midst of a massive military buildup just for kicks.

I just want every one on here and everywhere I am to know it really does matter where things are built and where the profits go. Most have no idea, it scares me.

Oh and Jayman drop the "son" comment next time unless you really are my dad. You would really enjoy talking to him! Retired chevy dealer of almost 50 years. He really loves Toyotas! Something about a couple weeks his father spent on Iwo jima in the mid 1940's soured him a bit on the whole Japanese thing!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 9 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]373354[/snapback]</div>

Looking back it was a bad decision, but hte same decision Toyota made with their RAV4 EV, if
I recall. Toyota did put an oar in the hybrid pond which it turns out at this point in time appeared to have been brilliant strategy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 9 2007, 07:13 PM) [snapback]373348[/snapback]</div>

Wow. Now I feel even better about changing my own oil. I never would have imagined a car dealer using questionable oil.

I do know the outfit I work for uses bulk oil. I would never use any of that in my car: when putting some in a company car, I could see all kinds of crap floating around in it. Yikes!

I'll stick to Mobil 1. By changing it myself, I keep the costs down to a comparable oil change at an oil-change establishment. I can't even trust those people to tighten a drain plug without cross-threading it, or putting it on so tight it takes King Kong to get it loose.

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 09:13 AM) [snapback]373608[/snapback]</div>

This simply is not true. At least not in the details.

GM not only never sold the EV1 - and at the end of the lease period, they demanded that all the cars be returned. No buy-out option. No lease extension. The cars were all collected, a few token units were sent to schools and museums, and the rest were crushed. My EV1 has about 30k miles on it - it drove and looked like NEW. And now it is a flat bit of scrap. And while GM was still pretending to *want* to lease the last of the 800 cars that they made available, they were simultaneously destroying the ZEV mandate that required the cars. The result was a suit filed against CA that finally destroyed the ZEV mandate.

Now Toyota. We have our own issues with them, for sure. And we continue to struggle with their decisions. Please don't lump me in with the "I hate GM for no reason, and love Toyota because they're nothing but green" crowd. I just know what I know. And the part that Toyota did different with the EV program was to actually SELL the vehicles, and to offer lease extensions or residual sales at the end of the lease. They have NOT recalled all the cars that they put out. The cars are still supported, and many hundreds of them are still running around every day - displacing gasoline cars. Mine is but one example. And probably most importantly, Toyota did not fight against the ZEV mandate that eventually killed all the EV programs from the big auto makers. Yes, once the mandate was dead, Toyota stopped their EV program just like everybody else.

The similarities between Toyota and GM are also many, unfortunately. The big one is that they both claim to have put great effort and money into a huge marketing program for their respective EV programs. They also claim to have had a really "streamlined" process for customers to take delivery of the cars. Wtih trained professionals and all that. As a customer of both vehicles, I can tell you with certainty that this simply is not true - from either company. Leasing or buying either car took several months of concerted effort, and more forms to fill out than you could imagine. Appointments for installers and electricians had to be made and kept. Permits for charger installation. NONE of it was streamlined, and all of it was a huge PITA. It both situations there wasn't even an available vehicle to test-drive. You just ordered blindly, worked like a dog for three months, and eventually (if you were one of the lucky ones) ended up with a car.

Gosh. I can't imagine why these programs were not more popular!

As for the hybrid "oar" comment. While Toyota was spending time and resources in testing that market, GM was busily spending time and resources alerting American drivers that we didn't want such silly crap. That we only wanted BIG POWERFUL *real* cars. :sigh: You do see a difference, don't you? I have no reason for a bias beyond how the two companies have treated me, and what they've brought to market. Your bias is obvious, and one that we can all understand... but you have to at least see the difference... don't you?