The Chevrolet Volt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 12:51 PM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

Many of them/us never owned GM? Better take one of those nifty poles you like to post. Maybe SOME haven't but many HAVE. THAT's why they can't stand GM ... no it's not just jayman and 3 others.

Easy to bash GM? Cool? It's not bashing to tell it like it is. Is truth cool? What ever ... you've probably never known a solo Suburban driver (the bed is clean because it's virtually never used) to get out, meet up w/ his buds, and verbally abuse one of those treehugging weird Prius drivers. Booo hooo it's so one sided.

Lastly ~ my dad, in his mid '80 now, went to Iwo, as a 17 year old. He drives a japanese import now. No conection between then and now. Sorry your grampa or dad can't get over it. Even as a 17 year old, my Dad, as biased as many of his generation were/are, he understood the politics of WWII (now that you have the Volt topic, trolling WAY off topic).

As a 17 year old, he understood the japanese saw the U.S. as their EXAMPLE during the 1930's and 40's. The U.S. were expansionists, ravaging other countries for corporate and national greed. Other countries? Heck we even did it to our own American natives. But the U.S. didn't put up with Japanese expansion, so they cut of their resources. What would the U.S. do in such a case? Drop a few BOMBS of course. So that's what the japanese did. They wrongly followed their BAD U.S. example. It backfired, and we got even ... put them in their place, so we could continue to ravage the worlds resources for OUR OWN PERSONAL gain. Me me me. The nature of man.

But malorn doen't like the idea of Asian countries making a buck. No. For some, "love your neighbor" ends with the guy next door. Certainly not in the next city ... the next county ... nation. No way. It sure seems to bug you that asians are getting a piece of the prosperity pie. But it won't bug you so much, if you think of other country's people as your neighbors. Get over it. That was 60 years ago.

Now, can we maybe get back to GM's PR ... & how far off, if ever, the VOLT will come into reality. Yes, a little reality please.

 

Careful or someone is going to join as either Hirohito or Tojo and shake their finger...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

Ever visited GM trucks dot com? Talk about a scary bunch over there, with the same "observations" you have about members of *this* forum.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

Don't hold your breath. If I ever needed to tow 6,000-9,000 lbs again, I suppose the Votec Max package would do it for me. But would I have any guarantee whatsoever the motor wouldn't go KNOCKKNOCKKNOCK and burn a quart of oil every 600 miles??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

I'll admit that I really don't believe GM corporation kills helpless newborn puppies and kittens

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

That's a new one for me. Who *exactly* are the "cultural elite" of the United States? Does this imply some sort of bias against American made automobiles based on education (Bachelor, Masters, Ph.D.), occupation (Engineering/scientific, upper management, etc), race, or ethnicity?? Just curious.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

Part of a plan. That should be patently obvious. And it really doesn't matter if the politician in question is a card-carrying member of the DNC, RNC, or the loony "christian" Neoconservatives.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

I doubt that. Again it should be patently obvious that China is a HUGE market - I've noticed that GM is making inroads into the Chinese car market - which would be completely wiped out by global thermonuclear war. Incidently most of us would also be wiped out by global thermonuclear war, so only a madman would want/desire such an outcome.

It's easier and far more profitable to simply hold the IOU's on the debt. So not only does China benefit from selling us their products - they even extend credit to allow us to pay for them. Sort of like how the neighborhood crack dealer arranges "easy" financing options. If I had zero ethics and morals, I personally would open up one of those payday-to-payday loan places and soak 'em for a minimum 100% APR.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

Are you referring to finished goods or subassemblies? As an example, over my nice long xmas vacation at the hobby farm I cleaned the coils on my 3 year old Kenmore bottom freezer refrigerator. I happened to notice it was imported by Sears Canada, made in Mexico, but the compressor itself was made in China.

A few months back, the old Hitachi tv at the hobby farm finally quit on me. Best Buy had really good prices on a 23 inch Samsung LCD with HDMI input. I have a Starchoice dish at the hobby farm and do tend to watch tv when there, so I can plug my HD Starchoice Motorola box - made in China - into the HDMI port of my Samsung LCD TV, which is also made in China.

That's ironic, don't you think?? Motorola is supposedly as American as apple pie, but the Motorola satellite receiver I have at the hobby farm was made in China. I just checked the Motorola cable box I have from Shaw and - surprise! - it's also made in China. I just checked my Motorola RAZR cellphone and - yup - China.

Samsung is Korean, but the LCD tv was made in ... China. Weird, don't you think? My NEC MultiSync 90GX monitor with DVI input is made in China. My ATI Radeon video card - ATI is a Canadian company - is made in China. The Asus motherboard - China.

So unless you live in a completely bare house, just how do you draw that line in the sand? Does "final assembly" in the U.S. work for you, despite all the semiconductors sourced in China, Taiwan, Malasia, etc? How about a company that appears to be American or Canadian, such as Motorola or ATI, having things made in China?

How about facilities located here, but the parent is a "foreign" company. Yes I'm thinking of DC. Before I left on vacation I noticed a Chrysler 300C with North Dakota plates on Fermor here in Winnipeg. Had a window sticker "Proudly American." I felt like stopping the fellow and letting him know his "proudly American" car was made in Ontario, Canada, and the parent company was located in der Fatherland.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

Ok kid, you got yourself a deal. The schtick was getting old anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 10 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]373602[/snapback]</div>

My grandfather - a Marine - was in the European theatre during wwII. Although he died in 1978, I never remember him speaking badly of Germans or Japanese. He even owned a Minolta camera and a Braun coffemaker.

He visited the Hiroshima memorial once, and after trying to apologize to the tour guide he received a hug instead. He also visited Auschwitz and Birkenau, which really shook him up as he was convinced up to the day he died that only a fate of geography and luck prevented the same thing - genocidal fascism - from happening here.

He thought wars were a complete waste of time, money, and people, especially since his youngest son - my uncle - was killed in Vietnam in a "friendly fire" incident. Became very much anti-war from that point on.

My Dad - also a Marine - served in Korea. He claimed his fondest memory were all the women there, a story that always got a glare from my mom. At 18 when I joined the Utah National Guard, to pay for college - I suggested enlisting with the Marines. That didn’t go over too good, so I didn’t.

 

Trying to get back to the re VOLT ing ... whooops I meant Volt:

http://www.caranddriver.com/autoshows/1226...lt-concept.html

I hate to paste from tools of the industry, but in essence, my favorite part of the article states, "Understandably, GM doesn't expect something like the Volt to be production-ready for another five years."

Yep, I should have made that bet. Five years for the VOLT and 10 for hydrogen cars. GM: you gotta love it.
And of course they can blame battery companys and say, well the batteries aren't ready. Yet there are 100+ mile EV's on the road right now.

 

heck, my dad was born and raised in Michigan. at one time more than half my family was employed by one of the big 4. (yes with 5 family members working for american motors, you remember the gremlin, pacer, javelin... yea them guys) in a way, some were lucky, have several that worked for them and retired and now live very comfortably. others, myself included, we were not so lucky. so if there was anyone pulling for detroit to pull their heads out of their a**'s, he was definitely one of them...

but at the same time he was a mechanic all his life and gave up on the big 4 and has been exclusively Toyota (with exception of a ford pickup used to haul his 5th wheel) for over 20 years now.

cant say he feels the same towards the japanese... he did marry my mother an Okinawan but i doubt that that had anything to do with his car buying decisions.

so even my uncle who worked as a millwright in the Mt. Clemens, Mich Ford plant for 37 years even drives a Toyota and has to pay nearly double to do so, he can lease a ford for next to nothing. he used to tell us stories about how he and his buds used to trash other guys cars if they had the nerve to drive "one of them rice burners" to work...(very few did and no one did it more than a few weeks back then) but swore a million times that he would never be caught dead driving a Toyota... but in the end, he moved from Michigan and bought one.

so if there was any family that was biased or rooted in detroit, my family USED to be it... now, the only thing they do is go back to visit the relatives that were too stubborn to move away...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 10 2007, 10:19 AM) [snapback]373555[/snapback]</div>

Well, I'm 5'1" and recently flew United. *My* knees touched the seat in front of me when it was in the upright position. So the Prius has more rear leg room than United Airlines. That's fine with me. The seats are more comfortable too.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 10 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]373558[/snapback]</div>

$20 bucks says not before Dec. 31, 2012.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 10 2007, 07:19 PM) [snapback]373861[/snapback]</div>

That would be liberal Democrats, I think.

Sorta like "San Francisco Culture" for Homosexuals and "New York sense of humor" for Jews.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 10 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]373887[/snapback]</div>

:lol: that was one of the first things that came to mind when I saw the local news story on the Volt. Five years? that sounds like their pie-in-the-sky projection for the hydrogen fantasy. They've been saying that those fuel cell cars will be on the market in ten years for years now. The auto show is just a fantasy show for the auto industry. A lot of the cars they put on display are never seen again, at least not by the consumer on the dealer's lot

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jan 10 2007, 07:19 PM) [snapback]373861[/snapback]</div>

Odd that you should bring this up. Just yesterday, for another thread here, I used a Federal data source (National Household Trip Survey), restricted to US versus Japanese vehicles, and tabulated fraction of ownership by education category (less than high school through postgraduate degree).

About 80% of persons with less-than-high-school education drove US-badged vehicles while just over 50% of persons with postgraduate degrees drove US-badged vehicles. In between the relationship was essentially linear -- the higher the educational attainment, the less likely to own US vehicles.

I'm not sure I would or would not categorize that as bias. Could be bias, could be smarts, could be who knows what. Another poster correctly objected that other factors might be causing that relationship (I suggested income, he suggested other factors such as type of employment).

Anyway, the fact of the matter is that yes, the most-educated segment of the population here is, in fact, far less likely to drive a US-badged vehicle (when compared to a Japanese car). Whether that's due to bias or smarts or something else is anybody's guess. I found it discouraging, and figured it did not bode well for the big 3.

Personally, I guess I'm a) educated, and B) somewhat more forgiving that some. My first car was a Chevy Vega (as my dad used to say, please fill the oil and check the gas), but that was a long time ago. I'm over it. I'd buy the Volt if it were the first car of this type to market.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Jan 11 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]374041[/snapback]</div>

Not many people realize that this has been promised (by GM) since the mid-60's now. We've all heard about how we'll have fuel cells powering our laptops in about two years? Yeah. I've heard that just about every year since the early 90's. I only wish we could actually LIVE in that fantasy world that the marketers create.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 8 2007, 11:47 AM) [snapback]372597[/snapback]</div>

Sorry I had to jump in. The Fusion drives quite poorly BUT regardless of that it did lousy in the crash tests at the IIHS. A Brand new 2006 model doing lousy in the crash tests.... good old Ford taking us all back 20 years. I think Ford should be ashamed of building such a deadly car. The name Fusion is meant to make 'stupid' consumers think it's a hybrid and their ad campaign with slogans like 'don't just use engergy, create it' is also meant to trigger thoughts that it's a hybrid.

I'd like to see Ford suffer the way that GM does on this board for their false advertising and unsafe design.

I hope and pray that the VOLT will be made, and if it's made - and there isn't some other better choice at the time, you can darn well bet I'll be adding one to my garage.

I'm on the waiting list for a HYMOTION PHEV conversion but I worry about how I am going to get heat from my car if I convert it. I think the VOLT system is a step above what we have now and quite a good temporary solution until we can really go all-electric with swappable batteries someday

 

It's called "Fusion" because someone had the bright idea to give all the cars names starting with F. I've never come across anyone who thought it was a hybrid.

On the Volt, I cannot figure out why GM presented it. If it's a real possibility by 2010, and they're ahead of competitors, like Toyota, why tip their hand? If it's not a real possibility, then why show something they won't be able to deliver?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mkaresh @ Jan 11 2007, 09:02 AM) [snapback]374129[/snapback]</div>

Well you just did amigo. I saw the first commercials with my parents who were visiting. They commented "Look Josh, Ford is coming out with a hyrbrid now too, you should check it out". Note that they are old school American Car pushers...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 8 2007, 02:02 AM) [snapback]372346[/snapback]</div>

Hmmm, I wonder then why Toyota says they don't "see plug-in hybrids coming to the market soon" because of battery limitations?

Toyota doesn't see plug-in hybrids coming to market soon

Is Toyota evil? Are they despicable liars? We know that Toyota's claim that they're waiting for the batteries is just crap. Is it all about Toyota's greed and their ties to Big Oil? Tell me it isn't so!

 

Wayne Gerdes (xcel) is at the N American AutoShow in Detroit this week. What he said is the battery manufactures are ready, but it's actually producing the volumn that concerns automakers, not to mention servicing, recalls, etc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jan 7 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]372062[/snapback]</div>

I have to agree. I have long been a "buy American" type of car owner. My next car will be a Prius. If GM and Ford wake up, I will probably "buy American" again.

 

Um... because they're lying?

No need to make it a black-or-white thing. Toyota has lied. They've lied under oath at hearings I've attended. Their claim to be waiting for batteries is just crap. Their advertising compaign for the EV program was just crap. Their claim that there wasn't enough interest in EVs is just crap. They, like every auto maker, has ties to ICE's due to long-term investments. No auto maker will walk away from those investments if they don't have to.

I can't tell you it isn't so, because it is. The big question is - what's your point?

I've owned a toyota EV and I've leased a GM EV. Both companies are quite capable of making EVs today with current technology (duh - they made them ten years ago with THAT technology!). Both comapanies have lied about the past EV programs, and about the reality of what could be produced today. Did you see above there in the part of mine that you quoted where I said "Toyota could have done it?"

Not sure what you want me to say. (or, more likely, if you'd just like me to shut up. )

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 11 2007, 01:15 AM) [snapback]374009[/snapback]</div>

G

Thanks, but I was just being sarcastic. Though seriously, take a peek at gm hyphen trucks dot com, and check out the scary folks that live there. BRRRrrrrr!

J

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 11 2007, 08:17 AM) [snapback]374047[/snapback]</div>

Which as you stated does bode quite badly for the Big Two (DC is now German, so I guess we can count them out).

Could it be that folks with post secondary degrees have had extensive training in research, so they've actually - <gasp> - researched the vehicle they're about to buy? Now I'm *really* being sarcastic, but essentially that is the way I see it.

It figures that the Sierra I purchased was the first vehicle I did NOT research, especially the reliability ratings. And I got burned as a result. Caveat emptor

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 11 2007, 07:21 PM) [snapback]374394[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, I just used your post because it was convenient. My real target was the "GM can do no right, Toyota can do no wrong" crowd. I acknowledge that you don't exactly fit into that stereotype.