The Chevy Volt - Addressing Your Concerns

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 03:58 PM) [snapback]389698[/snapback]</div>

True, but even if we assume WORST case and say that the current coal plants stay, aren't will still (according to graphs shown at the end of the documentary) going to see a net decrease in the amount of energy consumed and the amount of pollution generated? Furthermore, while it does little to help pollution, if I had to choose between the two, I would rather have my energy come from West Virginia coal then Saudi oil.

But, like you, I agree the perfect answer comes from renewable energy, such as plants running wind or solar power (or wave power for that matter, saw it a Popular Science a few months back). I would want to throw nuclear power in that list as well, but after seeing some of the hostility I received in this forum, I'll digress. Don't want everyone here to think I’m 'astroturfing' for the Nuclear Power Society or something.

But, I thought of a question while I was on my run today. To bring the topic back to the Volt, (and please: let’s all imagine that GM is not an evil empire bent on destroying the rainforest, but is just a company trying to make money), assuming this, how do you think they should handle the Volt. I see two ways it can go:

40 Miles EV by 2009: Basically, they make it their goal to have it out by model year 2009, with 40 miles EV capacity, and comparable hybrid specs from that point on. However, they will price it at whatever it takes achieves this. I honestly have no idea what that number would be, say top end of 40k?

---or---

MSRP 22k by 2009: Pretty much like above just switch it around. They cap the price at a level that poses a slight premium over standard sedans, and achieve the best figures possible at this price. Maybe cutting EV length to 30 or 20 miles, well below the 40 mile sweet spot.

Personally, I think GM should (almost) completely disregard the cost, and pour all they have into this vehicle. It would generate enormous positive buzz for GM in general, and can get them out in front again on the race for the future. Even if it is slightly pricey (to the point maybe where you don’t actually SAVE money driving it) they can tout that emissions drop. Furthermore, they can keep improving it and dropping the price with each year it comes out, which is the way all modern electronic products are treated anyways. They can just keep tweaking and improving, each year coming out with a slightly better, slightly cheaper Volt.

The lessons learned could even be applied to applications in every day vehicles. GM's Aura, Malibu, Tahoe, Yukon and Vue hybrids will have been out for a few years, and they could eventually come with the option of a larger battery pack for EV operation as well. I doubt it would be as viable in the SUV's, but in the sedans even 20 miles could be more than enough for most folks. How many times have you found yourself simply leaving a parking lot, and going down the street half a mile to another when running errands? All of those short little hops on gas could be eliminated.

What’s more is that short on-off cycles are hard on a gasoline engine. With an EV mode for short trips, this would lessen the wear on the engine, thus prolonging its life. And let’s not forget, the less an internal combustion engine is used, the less anti-freeze and engine oil get used as well!

Hybrids were the first logical step. Now they should move towards EV/hybrids. With the improvement and lessons learned from there, they will be able to move to true EV's, and once they do they can dump heavy MPG robbing antiques such as transmissions.

What do you think?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 07:21 PM) [snapback]389846[/snapback]</div>

I wasn't trying to say it HAS to offset the cost to be a sucess. However, you would be a fool to suggest that cost savings arent a huge motivator for most people to buy this type of vehicle. This forum is populated, as it seems to me, mostly by people who drive a hybrid for their emissions benefits. While I have no numbers at my disposal, I would be willing to bet that a large percentage (at the very least 1/3) of hybrid owners countrywide bought it primarily to save money.

Obviously just saving on emissions is great, but being able to do both is better and will helped to ensure a spectacular launch.

Even though what I said above may seem to dispute it, I do believe switching to a "what do we need to do?" attitude is exactly what we need. Not to stray too far off topic, but this type of thinking should be applied to all forms of energy consumption (lights, A/C, lawn equipment, etc), as well as environmental conservation (planting trees, supporting national parks, etc).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LaughingMan @ Feb 14 2007, 03:26 AM) [snapback]390079[/snapback]</div>

Basically, from what you said, I gather two opinions from you. First that the Hughlander is a much better vehicle, and second that GM has been indifferent to environmental concerns.

To adress the first, your right, I never argued that the Higlander Hybrid is a superior vehcile, but like I said before, an extra 10,000 dollars buys you a better vehcile. As to the comments saying the VUE is 'stripped down', it has the exact same features (standard/optional) in Green Line form as the Highlander, check it out for yourself. In fact the only feature that wasnt shared between the two is a spoiler, standard on the Vue and not offered on the Higlander. As we all know, a spoiler is very important in a FWD car to increase downforce on the back wheels ;-).

The Vue is a MILD hybrid. GM new they needed to get something out quick, and they did. The Vues selling point is that is has the smallest 'hybrid premium' on the market (even though it costs a tad more than a prius right?). As Im sure you know, it recieves almost no electronic assist from the electric motor, the electric motor just serves to keep accesories running so the engine can stop when at a traffic light or decelerating. This car would be much more properly designated an "Internal Combustion Engine Optomizer" and not a hybrid, but hybrid has equity and thats what they went with.

The new Vue will be coming out shortly, as will the new highlander. I will be interested to see if GM uses their new two-mode hybrid system to make a true hybrid Vue. The results could be really impressive, I have heard the two-mode is quite advanced (integrating a 4 speed tranny with a CVT.. cant really follow tranny design tho.. lol) so much so that BMW will probably be leasing it from GM.

And the second about GM's enviromental concerns. Do you think that McDonalds is hell bent on making americans fat and giving them heartattacks? Do you think that is their goal? NO. Their goal is to make money. Do you think SubWay is dedicated to helping you loose weight and develop a healthy cardiovascular system? Do you think that is their goal? NO. Their goal is to make money.

The same is true for Toyota and GM. But, assuming that I am wrong, here is some info on something GM HAS done, not just talked about: http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...llison_bus.html

Its GM hybrid bus system. For some stupid reason I cantt find out when it started, or the total ammount of pollution NOT released as a result of their use (saw it a PopSci advertisment), but they make the point that due to their constant use, and extreme stop-go routes, busses are the MOST logical place to put a hybrid. They site some 50% quicker acceleration, quiter, better MPG, as well as a 90% reduction in emissions.

You know that big plume of smoke that comes out of a diesel when they first floor it? With the electric engine doing that initial accelerating, their is no plume, pretty sweet huh?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]389872[/snapback]</div>

Yes, lol, I meant to include a 'Not' in there, I went back and edited the post after seeing this. I guess that’s what I get for not taking the time to properly review what I write!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]389872[/snapback]</div>

I’m not sure that I would totally agree with this. All those people out there who bought a Prius to save cash are also, whether intentional or not, doing less to harm the environment than they would be otherwise. I think that if the Prius only got less emissions, but had the same MPG as a Corolla, they wouldn’t sell nearly as many. People buy hybrids for all sorts of reasons including: financial frugality, energy independence, and environmental responsibility. While your primary concern is the latter, it doesn’t matter which of the three THEY bought it for, because as a result they are still helping the issue you care about.

On the subject of Hybrid advertising, the only three I can really remember were all fairly emissions based. In a Honda TV commercial (not sure if it was for the Insight, or Civic, or all of them) where they show waste from running water, lights in an office building, and end with a tagline "couldn’t we all waste a little less" or something to that extent. Then the Toyota TV commercial (touting all three hybrids) was slightly more vague, but conjured up good feelings of a clean planet and had a tagline to the extent of "what if the air were clean again". The third was a GM print ad I saw about their hybrid busses, and it cited the total amount of CO2 and NOX not released into the environment as a result of their busses.

While I’m sure there are probably exceptions, all hybrid advertisements I can think of (the above three), are either anti-waste or pro-environment. They said nothing directly about cost savings, and you would have to do ALOT of inferring to get that message from the Honda commercial.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]389872[/snapback]</div>

True, but the beauty here is that the cars we NEED can be cars we WANT, for a whole host of reasons. An EV would make a far superior sports car, imagine four 50HP electric engines, one on each wheel. 4WD, perfect weight distribution, really easy to set up regenerative breaking on it to charge the battery. No tranny, no cooling system, no driveline, it would be way lighter than anything out today! This seems to be the attitude Tesla is taking in their designs, and I think its awesome. I can't wait ‘til the costs come down for one of their cars! I’m really excited to see their new sedan, I hear it will be very capable of being a mainstream car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]389872[/snapback]</div>

I agree, and its a shame how facts are often skewed. I was having a conversation with someone about alternative fuels, and he said E85 is a sham because of the refining process. I asked him "you know that gasoline has to be refined too right? It doesn’t come out of the well as 87 octane! You know those big shots of flame coming out refineries and drilling plants?" YES, it costs energy to make a battery. YES, it costs energy to make E85. Opponents are very quick to point this out. But any fuel costs some energy to make! Batteries and E85, once made, produce far fewer emssions (battery emissions dependant on power plan, E85 is crazy clean if I remember right) I would be very interested to see a comparison chart on the costs (monetary and pollution) of battery/E85/gasoline production. Do your buddies have any data on that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]389872[/snapback]</div>

True, that would be best. But, to say it again, if someone buys a hybrid purely to save money, they are still helping the environment. I think the goal for the time being is to get as many 'butts in seats' as possible, regardless of the selling point. Because as stated before, no matter which of the three 'reasons' they choose, they still help all three.

 

I feel as though we have strayed off topic and that this thread has run its course, and needs to be 'put out to pasture'. But before I retire, I want to bring it all back to what I was talking about initially, people's concerns as they related to the Chevy Volt, ala GM reliability.

DarellDD, thanks for all the great conversation, but this last question goes to you: Were you happy with the reliability of your GM EV1?

Actually, I lied, one more question: where can I get one of those shirts? (your avatar?)