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The father of Prius to become the next Chairman

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by usbseawolf2000, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    How much money exactly and how big part of their R&D has it been?

    Do you actually know or are you just pulling things from thin air as I suspect.

    You got one company seriously investing right now into the technology, and everyone else either following or pretending to be following. No amount of empty words can change the facts that are plain to see in the number of actual vehicles on the road.
     
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    You are being quite a troll here again spwolf. Everything I have written on this thread is pro prius.

    I have previously posted links for you for the MITI money on hybrids. It was manufacturing money, not R&D money, half the extra cost of a hybrid over a similar ICE. MITI is quite secretive, but former members have been public about this information in books they have written. MITI did provide R&D money for BEVs, and some of that tech made it into the prius. The MITI arrangement has been studies quite often. It did back the wrong technology initially, but backed production of the technological winners the most. The US plug-in subsidies were partially based on the success of this program.
     
  3. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    except that Ford went on and bought Toyota components for next several years.

    Once again, you are pulling things off think air and you have no factual evidence of anything you are writing about.

    The hard fact is that Toyota is investing into hybrids and selling over 1,200,000 last year... other fact is that Ford sold 40-50k last year and might go up to 80k. How much do you think they invested into them, seeing how their R&D is several times less than Toyota's and their hybrid share is 10x less than Toyota's?

    Are you suggesting that Ford is investing billions into hybrid research? Because you are trying to pretend as they are on equal footing - something that Lutz has tried to do with his PR's for the past 10 years, but the fact is they are not.

    So no, not everyone is on equal footing and not everyone is at same position. There is only one market leader - and that is Toyota. Ford at least has some cars on the road, but their sales are so small that they are probably not profitable at all. Question is how much is Ford investing into hybrids? GM is not even on the same lane as Ford and has miss another Volt goal in 2012 so they are probably losing billions without end in sight.


    So in the end, there is only one fact here - and rest is corporate secrets that nobody knows everything about. And they certainly wont tell you. Fact is that one company makes 90% of hybrids sold in the world today. And that is Toyota. So no, they are not all working on same stuff.
     
    dbcassidy likes this.
  4. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    why am I being troll? You keep repeating how govts help Prius and that they are all working on same track. They are not. Lets stop pretending. Its not trolling to say the facts. Come 2015, Toyota will sell 2,000,000 hybrids per year. Thats because they invested billions into technology and backed it with full strength of their company for a long time now.

    I sure hope that everyone follows but there is no such evidence right now. I only see Toyota and Tesla doing something in the future. BMW sounds interesting with their i cars but lets see. A lot of companies are just doing hybrids and ev's for PR stunts and waiting for their suppliers to help them with technology (and $$$).

    I hope Tesla shoots up to the sky and starts producing at least 100k cars by 2015 as well.
     
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    You could just google for a source instead of spreading your ignorance. This is the first link that pops up in my browser. Do you think that pulled it from thin air too?

    EDITORIAL: Attention Wall Street Journal - Ford does not use Toyota's hybrid system!

    The facts are not so hard to find as you seem to think.
    There was also no money exchanged.

    On why Ford bought parts from Aisin, that is quite straightforward also. Aisin extended those TRW patents and came up with a PSD. It then offered it to both toyota and Ford. Toyota bought from Aisin from the gen I prius until the 2009 gen III prius, Ford started later and continued until the 2013 c-max and fusion. Although Aisin is partially owned by toyota it is not toyota, and both companies have made that point quite clear. Aisin simply made the parts for Ford cheaper than ford could get in low volumes than anyone else when the escape was produced. Just in case you need a moldy source from 2003, first google up with aisin and prius, talking about the escape transmission.
    Yahoo! Groups
    Later on
    Excerpt;

    Now this is really off topic. According to Hill's wired article neither Toyota or Ford invented the hybrid. Toyota did a great job on the prius, and it has been much more successful than any other hybrid. In 2004 ford and toyota were at similar technical levels in hybrid technology, and it is likely Toyota would have licensed technology to other players. The credit goes to toyota for taking those ideas and making them into a successful car.

    Porsche - invented the hybrid. The guy was a true automotive pioneer.
    Toyota produced the first commercially successful production hybrid - the prius. It had other non production hybrids in its R&D before the prius.
     
  6. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    We could all "ignore" him and not put up with his rubbish.

    DBCassidy
     
  7. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Yep! have seen here a consistent effort to take credit away from Toyota for the Prius.
     
  8. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    The way TRW hybrid use planetary gearset is like how Volt uses it. Ford and Toyota hybrids use the PSD differently.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I think Toyota deserves Nobel prize for Prius development, but the preceding posts illustrate why it might be problematic. Sounds good to me to have one of Prius's many father's at the top at Toyota. Applied Physics was his degree, interesting major, do we have something like that? Sounds a little like Physics Engineer, but I made that up. Anyway I like the technical degree person getting the nod.
     
  10. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Nope.. you were wrong on this before and are wrong again. The Volt is not closer to the TRW patent than the Prius is.. both have major differences.


    In the TRW Electromechanical Transmission – EMT
    – ICE drives the planetary SUN gear
    – The “speeder” (generator) M/G connects to the carrier
    – The “torquer” (motor) M/G is connected to the ring gear via an
    additional gear ratio.
    – Ring gear output shaft transmits summation power to the vehicle
    driveline.

    http://groups.engin.umd.umich.edu/vi/w4_workshops/Miller_W04.pdf

    The Prius is closer except that the original prius HSD swapped the ICE and MG1 connections, the other two are connected the same. This was possible because the Prius used a much larger motor for MG2, and used a motor/generator that was also more powerful and capable of higher RPMs.

    The Volt has the output on the carrier, the ICE can be clutched into the ring gear (or clutched into the generator for series operation, with the ring gear locked in place). Nothing, not a single component, is in same configuration as the TRW.


    But it is good to see an engineer with his hand on the controls... It is well deserved.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thank you!

    Until this power flow chart, I was puzzled why the Volt has such poor engine-powered mileage. With the generator and engine are connected to the same ring gear, the generator rpm is directly coupled to the engine rpm. This generator-engine rpm restriction limits the range of torque-power available to keep the ICE in a fuel efficient range ... called the 'operating line' in the Toyota SAE papers.

    In contrast, the Prius design decouples the generator rpm from the ICE which gives more flexibility in keeping the engine in the peak BSFC range. In effect, MG1 and MG2 are completely, software controlled to manage the ICE. In contrast, the Volt mechanically limited the 'generator' to the ICE rpm, eliminating one degree of freedom to optimize the ICE drivetrain.

    There may be other contributing factors contributing to the poor Volt engine powered mileage.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Actually, the torque constraints seem the same .. can you explain why you see them different.

    In terms of RPM, the Prius MG2 rate is constrained (by vehicle speed as its tied to wheels, so there are 2 free parameters to define the operating space.


    In the Volt, MGA and MGB/ICE are independent of the vehicle speed, so it still has 2 free parameer. For any given desired ICE RPM/Torque, MGB is along for the ride at the same RPM (and can be generating or torquing as commanded), and then the control can adjust MGA to produce the final output torque/speed desired. MGA can, and does, operate as a generator as well, the engine can drive it to produce power if the ICE already has excess torque. The "MGB" is called the generator because when in serial mode, its decoupled and used as a dedicated generator.

    The Volt's ICE MPG are weak largely because its a standard generic engine (not Atkinson or otherwise optimized) pushing a heaver vehicle.
     
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I always felt the GM/Volt plugin design was primarily geared (no pun) to avoid Toyota's problem ie; avoiding Alex Severinsky controller patents. Thus, GM geta to claim its system is new / innovative / different / better / etc, because GM does love to make lots & lots of market claims. GM likely got into the guts of Toyota's synergy drive & figured if they went the same design route, they'd face the same patent issues. Just a guess.
    One thing IS certain about the difference of the 2. GM went for a much heavier battery. Kills mpg. GM went for a less efficient ICE. Easier to get to the masses. Even Lutz himself acknowledged/lamented he opted for the 'sporty-agressive' look thing above mpg. Big wheel tire combo. So GM ended up with the more aggressive fad/look, while Toyota PiP went for economy/fuel conservation above looks. THAT explains more of the mpg's to me. GM did a better job with drag/coefficiency than Toyota, yet the Volt gets worse mpg, even though its smaller/4seater.
    Although I have no stats/data, I'd be willing to bet $100 if you put the right ICE/wheel/tire combo on the Volt, you'd have a mpg giant like the PiP.
    I should probably re-read the Wired article before commenting rather than going by my poor memory, but what I took from the Wired article was that Severinsky got less public credit than deserved. Toyota IS the undisputed father / perfecter of the mass produced hybrid. But without Severinsky's prior work perfecting the controlling systems that enabled the Prius, it wouldn't have been possible at that time. Withe tech growing leaps and bounds someone (maybe/likely even Toyota) would have eventually gotten the same results 1st. But that's history for you ... day late / dollar short. As Bob said above, success has many fathers.
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Bob you aren't reading the diagram right. mga and mgb have the same degrees of freedom. By working with mga and mgb you can get any combinatioin of torque/rpm for a given power needed from the ice.

    City mileage is constrained by the operation. The volt engineers decided to use a decoupled mode using it as a serial hybrid at lower speeds. The main differences in efficiency are differences in the efficiency of the ice.
     
  15. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    These arguments for improving the efficiency of the ICE in a PHEV remind me of cigarette smokers arguing in support of "light" cigarettes.

    I consider the ICE in a PHEV more of a nicotine patch, something that I don't want to use unless it's an emergency. It takes an appropriately sized battery to not use the ICE patch on a daily basis. An undersized battery and you are going to use the ICE every day, and continue the addiction.

    I have found that I end up using the ICE patch about once every three weeks (800 miles) and about 3 months between buying gasoline (3000 miles per tank).
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Hill you got most of that right, but a few things are off.

    The volt and its sister ampera, at least in non closed markets, sell better than the prius phv, even though GM gets more money. Part of the reason maybe the greater EV range and handling. The numbers are close though, and Toyota can learn lessons and improve the next generation. Honda did not learn the right lessons on the insight and is not really competitive now on hybrids, phevs, or bevs.

    The volts lower mpg has to a lot to do with a higher, not lower cd - .28 versus .25 for the prius phv, higher rolling resistance tires, and a less efficient ice. In CD the volt does get 98 mpge versus the prius 95 mpge, so not much of a difference there.

    I don't think licensing the Severinsky patents would have been much of a problem for gm, and they may be licensing his patents. Part of Toyota's problem with severinsky is years of fighting him in court with large teams of lawyers. It wouldn't have cost gm very much per car if they negotiated in good faith. I think he was asking Toyota for $25/car initially, and I'm not sure what the settlement ended up being. Toyota has however wrapped the prius in thousands of small patents and I'm sure lawyers were in the room when the volt was being developed to make sure they were not violating the all the stuff ford and Toyota had lawyers working on.

    Toyota deserves a lot of credit for the prius. It was the first commercially successful hybrid and remains the most successful.

    I think it is a little like the Apple Xerox story. When Apple wanted to improve their computers, it looked at the best technology out there, and ended up seeing he stuff being done at Xerox parc. It found the technology for the GUI and the mouse. It then came up with the lisa and the mac. It also surrounded these things with patents, and many believe apple invented them. Xerox really didn't know how to make money from their inventions but Apple did. I don't see Toyota as inventing the hybrid, since it didn't, but it knew how to make money from it. You have to give them credit for a great design / marketing effort on the prius.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The back-EMF from a permanent magnet rotor, motor is proportional to its rpm. This in turn limits the amount of current that can pass through to generate torque. Having the generator tied to the engine limits both the direction and torque that the generator can apply to or take from the engine.
    One of the innovations in the 1.8L drive is gearing that allows MG2 to have a greater rpm range. This becomes important at higher speeds when MG2 runs as a generator to make the power needed to turn MG1 into a motor working against the ICE torque. Toyota calls this 'energy recirculate' which the early Prius adopters called 'heretical' mode. It is in effect an 'over-drive' mode.

    [​IMG]
    In contrast, the Toyota system is optimized to manage the ICE, keeping it in the most fuel efficient, BSFC range, the operating line. As you've described, the Volt seems more willing to vary the ICE rpm and power which can put it in less efficient operating points.
    The traditional problem with Otto cycles comes with throttle-limited, power operation. The Volt ICE may more frequently go into less efficient, partial throttle modes than the Prius.

    Do you have an OBD data on the Volt engine? In particular, throttle position, mass flow, spark advance, fuel trim, e.t.c.?

    A lot of what we know about the Prius is based upon metrics and careful benchmarks. This has often converted the theory from Toyota SAE papers into models that help us understand the 'sweet spots' and 'knee in the curve.'

    Bob Wilson

    I was just going by "Ring Gear > Locked to case or motor/generator and 85-hp gas engine".

    I thought this meant the ring gear could be braked to hold the engine-motor/generator rigid with the case. Alternatively, the ring gear could be free-wheeling, constrained by the engine-motor/generator that would rotate as a single unit.

    This diagram is the first sketch that made sense about the Volt drivetrain. Based upon my understanding of Otto cycles and how the Prius works, I can see why the Volt would have trouble keeping the ICE in a peak BSFC, operating state:
    [​IMG]

    If the generator has both rpm and torque under software control to keep the ICE in a peak BSFC area, the designer has more freedom to keep the ICE at peak BSFC. But given the Volt has an Otto cycle and the power needed varies significantly over the speed range, I can see where the Volt has an ICE efficiency challenge. The original diesel would have worked better had the NO{x} emissions been solvable. With an Otto cycle, it might be better resolved with a 6 or 8 speed, automatic transmission (i.e., blue motion approach.)

    I don't envy GM engineers tasked with trying to expand the range of vehicles with this architecture.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The benefit of the voltec system is that mgb's speed can be varied with vehicle speed. This allows mga (mg1) to spin to slow down mgb (mg2) to have it work in a more efficient range at higher vehicle speeds. Tesla solved the problem of gearing the traction motor by having a more expensive traction motor that did not need gearing.;)

    The ice and mba is often separated from the wheels giving it a true mechanical serial hybrid mode. In the prius this is accomplished by electronic control of mg1 rpm. This does require the adition of a clutch and volt uses 3, which means slightly higher mechanical complexity. This mode allows the feel of the volt to be the same with or without the ice being on, with a slight decrease in efficiency.

    I'm sure the mode you are worrying about is when ice, mba, and mgb are all connected mechanically to the wheels. The rpm and torque can be selected in the volt just like in the prius, to place the ice in most efficient mode. mga's speed is determined by ice speed, but mgb's speed can be selected to provide the requested torque at the wheels.

    I'm sure the misunderstanding comes in the assumption that mg2 has a fixed gear ratio to the wheels. The Voltec system opens this degree of freedom.

    There wasn't an original diesel, it was a flex fuel 3 cylinder turbocharged gasoline ice. This would likely have been similar to the new ford 1L ecoboost design or the Nissan 1.2L miller engine. I'm sure gm doesn't want to buy the engine and did not have time to make it. Since voltec is an eCVT there is no reason to worry about the ice selected rpm.
     
  19. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    I do.. but the dashdaw folks have way more abilities than my limited OBD right now.


    This is a great thread discussing battery buffer and power-split mode on the Volt.
    More DashDAQ battery buffer Data

    These images may answer what you seek:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As you can see the ICE RPM and MGA and MGB RPM allow it to keep the ICE in its sweet spot (which we believe is 1500-2300). Not sure what it was doing at the begining up at 3000rpm. The thread cited above has a good discussion of the ICE CS mode and maintaining the battery level.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Well that clears up one mystery. The 3d, 5th, and 6th charts, 'engine rpm', 'power split', and 'clutch 1' charts indicate there is another clutch that can disconnect the ICE from the generator.

    Bob Wilson