The Hybrid Premium

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Technical Discussion' started by padroo, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    2,762
    2,221
    13
    Location:
    Chesterton, Indiana Another third world country.
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Back when I bought my 2008 Prius there was a lot of talk about the Hybrid Premium, the extra cost of buying a hybrid car. Does that really exist today? It is hard to compare apples to oranges I know.

    With most of the R&D paid for a long time ago and the cost of batteries down in price it would seem a hybrid car would be a lot cheaper to build than a traditional car simply from the fact it has fewer moving parts.
    I am trying to keep this on the topic of a standard new Prius and not muddy it with the Prime because the Prime will have it's own growing pains.
     
    RCO likes this.
  2. GadgetVirtuoso

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    74
    40
    0
    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I was talking with my coworker about this very thing just last week. When I bought my Prius C in 2012 there I could have purchased a similar Corolla for about $5,000 less. When I purchased my Prius Two 2 weeks ago the difference was basically gone.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    86,361
    38,261
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    easiest comparison is camry to hybrid camry. toyota still throws a few bells and whistles at the hybrid, but it's not too hard to figure a few thousand dollar difference.
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  4. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    5,773
    3,407
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I believed then and I still believe now, it was a fallacy. There is no equivalent to a Prius in the first place in 2008. Using a Corolla or a Yaris or whatever is not a 1:1 so there was ZERO hybrid premium, it was just a completely different car.

    In 2018, there are direct comparisons between them like the Prius vs. Honda Insight Gen-3. But again, there is still no non-hybrid Prius is existence. But you can buy a hybridized RX450h vs a RX350 for example. That would be a hybrid premium. $43270 vs. $45695 for a $2425 hybrid premium. But again you get stuff with the hybrid you don't on the non-hybrid so it is still not a 1:1.

    The above RXh vs RX, the RXh has a butter smooth HSD vs. a transmission. That alone is worth the difference. It is faster and more powerful. It has better braking, the list goes on. And when you look at reported prices paid, the RX450h sell for about $1000 more. So again, I don't think there is a premium for just the hybrid components as people pay waaaaaaaay more than $1k just for performance packages that having nothing to do with hybridization.
     
    RCO, pilotgrrl, Tande and 1 other person like this.
  5. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    5,832
    6,403
    0
    Location:
    near Brisbane, Australia
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    2016. My top runners when buying were:

    • PRIUS - had RADAR CRUISE, Lane detection, auto wipers & lights, folding mirrors, DRL, LED h/lights - just about everything I wanted - about AU$38,779 drive-away;
    • FOCUS - had to go to TITANIUM to get equivalent equipment, but did have some extra extras - Auto Park and a stupid sunroof & leather which I didn't particularly want - about AU$38764 or $36500 Manual by the time I optioned it with Radar/Lane detection - there were no Manuals in the country though. LEDs weren't available at any price (HID);
    • GOLF - ditto except sunroof came with Luxury pack which was the only way to get DRLs - the downside was the terrible DSG - and that was the only choice - similar price to FOCUS, and again, LEDs weren't available at any price (HID).

    Others I had looked at and considered seriously - CT200h LEXUS and VOLVO V40 - were good on paper, similar price, but could be 60-70% dearer by the time it was equipped to PRIUS equipment.

    Then considering the saving on fuel, over 3 or 5 yr projections had PRIUS a long way in front.
     
    RCO and pilotgrrl like this.
  6. krmcg

    krmcg Lowered Blizzard Pearl Beauty

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    2,395
    2,207
    0
    Location:
    Whittier, CA
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Toyota charges a $1.000.00 premium on the hybrid Avalon over the non-hybrid of the same trim. I think that is very fair.
     
    Smaug1, pilotgrrl and Tande like this.
  7. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    5,832
    6,403
    0
    Location:
    near Brisbane, Australia
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    That would be quickly recouped in fuel savings - let alone brakes etc.
     
    Smaug1, RCO, pilotgrrl and 1 other person like this.
  8. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    889
    1,789
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoan in TX
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    After having driven my Gen 2 for 12 years, I think where we Gen 4 drivers will see savings is reduced overall maintenance for the most part. Gas savings will definitely be more than the Gen 2, but might not be as significant compared to lower TCO.

    Gas prices here in Plano are ludicrous - there's a gas war at Coit and Spring Creek. There's a new Walmart gas station and a new Murphy USA, both competing with the existing Exxon station. It was $2.31 this morning.
     
    RCO likes this.
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    40,462
    12,036
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    The cost reduction by sharing the platform with the Corolla (previously, it was on its own platform) will significantly reduce costs since the Corolla is a volume seller. Then there's the TNGA aspect of cost cutting (identical parts over multiple models) and of course Toyota's own cost reduction through improvements in hybrid components.

    In Canada, the Gen 4 Prius is priced right in between the Corolla and Camry. Previously, it was priced the same (or more) than a Camry.
     
    RCO and alanclarkeau like this.
  10. Starship16

    Starship16 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2018
    1,348
    1,433
    0
    Location:
    Beach Christmas
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    ----USA----
    I don't drive much. An expensive hybrid vehicle was probably not the most wise choice. My '16 Prius was $10,000 more than a very nicely equipped Corolla (on sale.) That 10K would have bought me 20 years of gas for the Corolla. I'm still not sure I made the right choice. (And the Corolla softex seats felt much better, too!)

    New Prius buyers should make sure to get insurance that covers windshield crack repair/replacement. Otherwise, all that money saved on gas goes right out the window.
     
    #10 Starship16, Jul 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
    Tande likes this.
  11. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2016
    3,708
    5,156
    0
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Am I jealous? You bet I am; our gas prices in UK are steadily creeping up again with no supermarket price wars on the horizon. That said, the supermarkets here still offer the cheapest gas prices. Excuse my lapsing into my false Americanism for petrol. :eek:
     
    alanclarkeau likes this.
  12. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    8,784
    5,410
    0
    Location:
    Undisclosed Location
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    That's true of pure EV...but un-true of a hybrid.
    A hybrid is a merging, combination of both electric vehicle components and ICE components. So despite the absence of an alternator, I believe a Prius has more overall parts than conventional ICE counterparts.
    True that some may be static...like the battery..that is not moving. BUT...it's still a part, which needs creation, installation.

    The rest of the HSD system is designed to marry two propulsion systems together for efficiency. It does a fantastic job doing so. But I would say it in NOT less complicated than an ICE vehicle.

    Someday, if we are talking about pure EV vehicles, less parts, and moving parts, will probably be a uniformly true statement. As brought up in the thread recently "Warning from Toyota President -Akio Toyoda.

    But for today, if we are talking Hybrids, I don't believe it is a true statement.
     
  13. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    8,784
    5,410
    0
    Location:
    Undisclosed Location
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    As far as Hybrid Premium?
    Well a few years back, when I bought my 2013?...Prius..I didn't feel I was hardly paying a premium at all.

    I owned a 2010 Honda Fit and what I found, was that a well equipped, well appointed Honda Fit, came out pretty close to the cost of a Prius II. Maybe only about $1000 less. Because many of the "Standard" features of a Prius, you had to pay extra for, with the Fit.

    But if I remember right, I paid about $22,000 for the Prius. It was really easy, when adding features to the Fit to suddenly get it's price up into the $20,000+ range.
    So anyway, at the time, I know I really didn't feel I was taking much of a Hybrid Premium "hit" vs. what I could afford otherwise.

    Now? With the increase in Prius prices, and Prius Prime? I don't think I could say that.
    To even get it close to the same financial dynamics I would have to be looking at a Prius c, or a used Prius.
    I might be able to make a similar non-Hybrid premium argument if I was looking at purchasing a Prius c, and the comparison was now Prius c vs. Honda Fit?
    I really don't know, because I've stayed out of the new car shopping market.
     
  14. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    891
    533
    4
    Location:
    Foot of Pikes Peak
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Lexus now says that their hybrids are "equivalent" in pricing to their non hybrids. For the NX I calculate the hybrid as about $1000 more. The Toyota Rav4 is hybrid is about $1200 more that the non hybrid. In both cases the hybrids have eAWD which may actually save Toyota money over conventional drive shaft AWD. I am anxiously awaiting the pricing of the 2019 Rav4. We'll see.
     
  15. krmcg

    krmcg Lowered Blizzard Pearl Beauty

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    2,395
    2,207
    0
    Location:
    Whittier, CA
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    The Toyota Avalon Hybrid MSRP premium is $1,000. Probably even less because they are harder for the dealer to sell.
     
  16. Tande

    Tande Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    453
    256
    0
    Location:
    Mich.
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I know nothing about "Today's" prices, but.......just for comparing......last year i paid OTD $23,500.00 for a new 2017-1/2 Prius ll ......
     
  17. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    8,784
    5,410
    0
    Location:
    Undisclosed Location
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I would say that's pretty good, considering what I paid, what is coming on 4-5 years ago.
    But it does still represent a growing gap, between what I was considering at the time, and that was keeping Honda Fit...or buying the Prius II.
    I paid about $19,000 for my Honda Fit EX...which has keyless entry and push button start, as well as a sunroof.
    So that now has become about a $4,500 gap. An amount I would think of as being more of a premium.

    On the other hand, the comparison is not entirely fair on many levels, as The Fit is a totally different animal. As a sub-compact, it's probably fairly compared more directly to a Prius c than a standard Prius.
    Having said that? That was also a reason I bought the Prius II. I felt I was hardly paying a "premium" at the time, as well as getting into a larger, and perhaps arguably more comfortable vehicle.
     
    #17 The Electric Me, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    Tande likes this.
  18. Smaug1

    Smaug1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2018
    134
    95
    0
    Location:
    Chicago suburbs
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Short Answer: There's not really a premium for hybrids any more. At least in the compact/midsize car segment. Seems there is a small premium for full size and SUV segments, which would pay for itself if any appreciable amount of city driving is done.

    This time around, I wanted a midsize or compact hatchback. I do most of my driving on the expressway, but sometimes, it is log-jammed.

    My choices and rationales were:

    a) Yaris - Least expensive, but worst ride and comfort, and not particularly impressive fuel economy. (due to cheap 4 speed trans, I bet) I rented one on a business trip recently. Neat little economy car, but it didn't blow my mind. It got 35 mpg in LA traffic, which was impressive for a conventional car.

    b) Corolla Hatchback - Very nice, up to 38 mpg. About the same price as my Prius Two, with fewer options. In this case, maybe it is a "hatchback premium" or "new model premium."

    c) Prius - Goldilocks car. 4th gen has decent acceleration, I love the back seat/cargo layout. No real weak points, that I can see.

    d) Prius C - A few grand less than Prius, but lower (rear) impact rating and fuel economy. Seems like false economy unless having a short car is a big benefit. (i.e. need to parallel park in the city often) Since the most common car accident these days seems to be getting rear-ended by someone playing with their phone, I thought the better rear impact rating of the Prius (non-C) was a real benefit too.

    e) Civic Hatchback - I like Hondas; almost bought this one. 40 mpg and 195 hp from its 1.5 L turbo engine. Same price as Prius, but the buyer gets higher performance instead of higher fuel economy. Would've been a lot more fun to drive than a Prius, but also would not get 75 mpg in bad traffic or 50+ on the expressway. I finally decided since there are very few twisty roads here, the Prius is a better bet.

    f) Hyundai and Kia hybrids; don't really trust them like I trust Toyota. They tend to be less efficient and have FAR less resale value down the road.


    Side note: they need to make a Prius Sport, maybe with their 2L engine, and stronger lithium polymer battery pack. Maybe a stronger battery pack alone would be enough? Prius Prime doesn't seem to be a good value for anyone with a commute more than 10 miles.
     
    krmcg likes this.
  19. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    891
    533
    4
    Location:
    Foot of Pikes Peak
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    You got it (sort of). 2019 Pirus hatchback 2l engine with eAWD. Oh wait a minute, it is actually badged as a Lexus UX. It is Prius sized, has a 'compact crossover" shape. Horsepower is 171 (compared to Prius 121). Combined mileage is 38. Battery is Nimh. Due in December.

    It is actually 1.7 inches shorter with wheelbase 2.4 inches shorter but a bit taller and wider than Prius.

    Here is a link to the specs/press release: https://www.lexus.com/documents/concept/UX/Lexus_UX_NY_Autoshow_March_2018.pdf

    I am very interested in checking it out.
     
    #19 royrose, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  20. Smaug1

    Smaug1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2018
    134
    95
    0
    Location:
    Chicago suburbs
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Interesting, but I don't want to pay the Lexus Tax either, hehehe.

    Tesla had the right idea: high performance doesn't have to mean poor or even average fuel economy. It just means expensive batteries.
     
Loading...