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Featured The Lie Begins to Unravel (R.I.P Cloud Peak Energy)

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by kenmce, May 18, 2019.

  1. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    Agreed. Which is a matter of debate in terms of contribution. And not made true by consensus.

    What we need is a way to sequester and use the carbon waste from power generation and manufacturing (of solar and wind power devices, as well as everything else) to reduce impacts. I have never understood why the same people who criticize traditional power generation are willing to terra-form Mars, which is plainly man-made climate change on a global scale.

    A certain level of global warming is not necessarily bad. A rational approach would be to harness the power to influence climate in order to sharpen the efficiency of food and energy production and shape the quality of life for a growing world population.
     
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  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Without actual data supporting vague statements like that, it gives the impression of downplay.
     
    #22 john1701a, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Renewable energy in Norway - Wikipedia
    tell that to (countries like) Norway - where ~ ⅓ of car purchases are electric, & >99% of electric generation is hydroelectric .... as well as being a net electricity exporter

    Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third of all sales - Reuters

    maybe SOME countries just need a combination of more Vision, coupled with desires to not search out the quick, dirty & easy way.
    .
     
    #23 hill, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    The article doesn't surprise me. Of course, they will spend their money on lobbying for their benefit. With this coal company being gone, I wonder how much more rest of the fossil fuel industry has to increase its funding level. Not much. I suspect. :(:(:(
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That is only true for brown Australian coal.

    I'd like to think that by the time that has an major impact, we can built solar satelites that beam power down, or are installing panels on space elevators.

    Anything we do will have an impact. It is a question of which option is less detrimental.

    Free standing solar panels have the virtually same impact on water run off as a building.
    Instead of rainfall being spread out over an area of open ground, that volume is being concentrated along a line of ground. That concentrates the erosion forces onto that line. It is the difference between digging holes with your first vs a shovel.
    The concentration of rainfall also means that the ground's absorption rate will be over whelmed faster. Yes, the excess will spill to the ground under the panel, but the simple fact that water is pooling on the ground instead of draining into the soil means more will go into storm drains and streams.

    The US makes it from natural gas. Hill is alluding to Toyota's plan for supplying hydrogen for Japan.

    Coal can processed into a powder that has much on the polutants removed before burning it in a power plant, or even a ship. Comes down to cost and regulations.

    Making a FCEV a plug in mitigates some of the issues facing them, but a large battery and hydrogen tanks make vehicle design harder.

    It's easy to spread because the major forces(Toyota, Japanese government, CARB, etc.) trying to commercialize FCEVs are pushing hydrogen for the fuel. Those using PEM fuel cells in their cars are pretty much tied to pure hydrogen. Those fuel cells are suspectible to contaminate poisoning, and can't run an autoformer as efficiently as a solid oxide fuel cell.

    The only major car company using a fuel besides hydrogen for their fuel cell is Nissan. Ethanol is much easier to transport and fuel with. The large battery and small fuel cell format can be cheaper while being plug in ready. It just relies on Nissan's battery cooling.
    Ethanol and nearly any other hydrocarbon or other hydrogen carrier can be used with an autoreformer. Solid oxide fuel cells, like Nissan uses, can self reform simple hydrocarbons, like natural gas/methane and methanol, right in the cell.
    Yeah, solid oxide ones run hot, and they are less efficient than a PEM(ignoring hydrogen production). Nissan uses a low output one that 'trickle' charges a Leaf sized pack to reduce the cost. In the future, they may work out as an replacement for an ICE in a PHEV. They can be made to run on whatever fuel we are using then, which will surely be easier to make and use than hydrogen.
    It is actually very simple once you realize it is about having environments suitable for humans' survival and expansion.

    That is much easier said than done. On Mars, we will be starting from the point where people can't survive. On Earth, you run the risk of making the environment unsurvivable. Which is the path we are already on.
     
  6. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Really? Do you have a link? Pretty much, AFAIK most solar panels are ~15% efficient with some more expensive ones being ~22% and it has been this way for a decade or so, with the more efficient ones costing up to about 2x as much (so only economical if you really have limited rooftop space). I got my ~15% efficient ones 4 years ago.
    Note that concentrating solar (while useful) still doesn't, technically, make the cells more efficient since the watts per unit area is what matters for efficiency. (watts per $ matters most for most homes when roof area isn't limiting).
    If you want to spend 10x or 100x as much (a guess) then there are panels used in space that are ~40% efficient.

    There has been constant progress with solar cells, but it has been on reducing costs, primarily.

    Mike
     
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  7. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    CleanTechnica
    SunPower Launches World's Most Powerful Residential Solar Panels | CleanTechnica

    Somewhat older, at 425 volt
    SunPower 425 Solar Panels

    March, 2019 - 415 volt
    SunPower Launches Industry's First 400-Plus-Watt Home Solar Panels, the Most Powerful Residential Solar Panels in the World - Mar 5, 2019


     
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    [Note: you confused watts with volts in several places.]

    Uh, that 425 watt panel is not in the same size as other 300 watt units.

    My newest expansion, four years old, has 280 watt modules in a 1.675 x 1.001 meter format. More recent versions were 300 watts in the same package, before business interruption shut things down a while back and their German parent sold them -- ironically, to SunPower.

    Sunpower 425 unit: "Dimensions: 81.36" x 41.18" x 2.13 inches" or 2.067 x 1.046 meters, an almost 29% larger package. So the 33% power gain isn't so impressive.

    I'm still trying to find spec sheets for the 'newer' 415 watt units, but their web pages don't seem to want to show them to me. What I do see is a picture with 66 cells, vs 60 cells in my current format. Thus it seems likely that it is also in a larger package. But one site indicated that it isn't being made available as individual modules for DIYers such as me, but only to installers of whole systems.
     
    #28 fuzzy1, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  9. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    I'm not sure any of those is significantly different than these (certainly not really counting as improving weekly):

    Record-Breaking Solar Technology and Award-winning Solar Innovations | SunPower
    2007: SunPower begins volume production of its record breaking high efficiency solar cell, averaging 22.4%

    Of course, we'll take whatever they can provide. But yields and cost per watt are still more important.

    Mike
     
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  10. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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  11. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    As far as U.S. coal power industry, which I am not a big fan, but going back to the 1970's, their overall approach has been to embrace climate change due to coal as something we can accept with adaption etc. So when OP says "lie" I am not sure I have been mislead by the coal industry re: CO2. They did lie about coal ash being benign, with EPA/Congress support, but common sense tells you that is BS.

    The problem I have with coal combustion, is even if the planet could handle the CO2, I am not sure the planet can handle the combiined effects of CO2, Particulates, NOx, SOx., mercury and so on, when you consider 1000's (?) of coal fired power plants in the world.
     
    #31 wjtracy, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  12. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Are these guys giving fuel cells a bad rep? Bloom really hyped things up nearly a decade ago (I still remember the 60 Minutes story) and I haven't heard much about them since.

    Why Bloom Energy deserves more scrutiny in 2019 | GreenBiz

    Did solar+powerwalls effectively kill this concept?
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I think the issue is still cost.
     
  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    yep - mediocre and not really a financial success, but hanging on due to massive incentives in Cali - kind of like automotive fuel cells .... always a bridesmaid, never the bride.
    .
     
  15. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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  16. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    With cheap natural gas, an efficient generator works well enough.
    I see fuel cells having a chance commercially once ICEs have hit their limits in efficiency and emissions. Though packaging advantages could tip in their favor for vehicles. Then there may be a place for them in renewable energy storage, if battery supplies become a limiting factor and pumped storage impractical.

    Stopping fuel cell research because hydrogen is a poor idea is short sided.
     
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  18. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    You mean, "short-sighted."
     
  19. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

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    Fuel cell research for cars is probably a dead end.

    However, fuel cells for ships or planes could have a future. While we have a readily available green alternative for cars (electric), we don't have ones for ships or planes yet. Biofuels might work, but I view hydrogen's light weight potentially highly valuable for plane travel.
     
  20. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    Let's start with the basics. There are two main things that create wind. The sun shines, and it shines on the Earth unevenly, and the world spins, and it always spins in one direction. These are the main things that create wind. They are constant and huge and there is nothing we can do to change them. They are givens, outside of our reach. After that are things called Hadley cells and Trade Winds that distribute this energy. They are generated by the size and temperature of the planet, and again they are too big for us to change. After that you get into conditions on the surface of the Earth, chiefly where there is water and where there is rock (the position of the seas and continents) and after that things like mountain ranges start to come into play. All of these are much too big for us to change.

    Let's look at that surface of the Earth, because that is within our reach. Imagine you have a spot where there is an ocean breeze that regularly blows on shore. Imagine it as barren ground. The breeze will be strong at ground level. Now imagine that same spot, but covered with 300 foot Redwoods. You will gentle the wind at ground level but you are not going to otherwise stop or shift it. The breeze will blow onshore like it always has. A forest of windmills would actually have less effect, because they are not as tightly spaced. If we started putting up long 10,000 foot tall walls that would start changing the wind, but however many hundreds of thousands of poles with a blade on them are just not going to do much.