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The most misunderstood aspect of the Toyota hybrid synergy drive system

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Paul Gregory, Jun 30, 2024 at 10:55 PM.

  1. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    if not, do it again with an instrument that can show the engine RPM, fuel cut status, battery state of charge, and current. Use the cruise control as described in #38. Datalog this and/or capture it on video showing your preparation, your roll down the hill, and the absence of engine braking.

    At this point, you are the one owing the forum evidence of your contrarian claim.
     
    #41 ChapmanF, Jul 1, 2024 at 11:25 PM
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2024 at 11:30 PM
  2. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    That's the point of what I'm doing here, but I don't agree that the burden of proof lies with me.
    The claim that engine braking occurs on it's own has been made many times, and I never got the proof I asked for.
    I'm going against a consensus of assertions here, not convincing evidence.
     
  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I also won't accept a negative result based on ear alone, without instrumentation. I have enough relatives with significant enough hearing impairments to know that not everyone can hear it.

    I must note that your dispute with our statements is also anecdotal, without any proof or evidence. While many of us have seen documentary evidence posted here, going back long long before you (or even I) joined this forum. And experienced it first hand, both without and with instrumentation.
     
    #43 fuzzy1, Jul 1, 2024 at 11:41 PM
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2024 at 11:54 PM
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  4. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    If you could have posted that, none of this would have been necessary.
    I can't accept anecdotes alone. I will endeavor to provide hard evidence.
     
  5. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    Something never explained to me was at what speed does this automatic engine braking kick in?
    How does it know the speed limit? On the hill where I'm planning to do the test, I'll set the cruise to the speed limit.
    If it doesn't exceed the cruise setting, and the battery is at full charge, then engine braking will be proved.
    But if I see the CHG gauge indicating regen braking, the deal is off.
     
  6. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Given B mode is just a momentary switch contact to the hybrid system, it’s hard to comprehend how engine braking could be anything other than completely computer controlled.

    Just had automatic engine braking in D happen today on a pair of steep mountain grades in Colorado. Never used B and frankly never do. The car quickly filled the battery using normal light brake controlled regen. The hybrid system automatically switched to no fuel engine braking and reved higher if I braked slightly harder.

    I also tried cruise control and the system automatically maintained the set speed without operating the hybrid brakes. In both cases the unfueled engine reved abnormally high.

    There are more interesting technical explanations on what actually happens to achieve engine braking but I would recommend gaining a thorough knowledge of the Toyota e-cvt system first. Spoiler alert, Brake mode is less efficient than D mode by design. I will say certain “deal” assumptions are wrong.

    IMG_5567.jpeg
     
    #46 rjparker, Jul 2, 2024 at 12:14 AM
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2024 at 12:25 AM
  7. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    Engine braking is computer controlled. The switch activates the computer responsible for valve timing. The valve timing is variable due to the way it emulates an Atkinson cycle engine. This is all based on my own research.
     
  8. CooCooCaChoo

    CooCooCaChoo Senior Member

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    You're gonna feel it more than hear it in a 2024. Like I said in my post, if you go down a downhill, the car will detect this and increase regenerative braking as well as a bit of engine braking to slow your descent. It is more noticeable in SPORT but will also happen in the other ECT modes.

    It should not be consider as automatically engaging "B" mode by the car. "B" mode can only be engaged physically with the shifter.
     
  9. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    I've always said that the car will use a bit of regen braking while coasting down a hill. But I don't know at what point that the battery will top out and not be able to absorb any more energy from the regen.
    At that point, there's no place for the regen energy, and engine braking must be used. I am trying to find out if the engine braking engages automatically, of if it must be done manually. No one seems to have hard evidence either way.

    It would make no sense for it to combine engine braking with regen braking. That would impact the fuel economy numbers. Engine braking would only have to happen once the battery can't take any more charge.
    The hybrid battery is not an endless well. It does have an upper limit.