The Potential Pitfalls of Electric Cars

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Old Bear, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    You don't need fast charging at home.
     
  2. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    I was talking about the near future of Superchargers.
    L2 at home is more than fine
     
  3. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    No, we don't know the future, but we do know that fossil fuel is non-renewable. And we do know that ICE is mature enough where there is little room left for breakthroughs. And we do know that electric motor is way more efficient than ICE. Those are all facts, not conjecture. From that we can at least forecast EV dominance. It is just simple necessity.

    Also, we can't keep burning oil forever. We may have a lot of oil still left to burn, but that's not the point. The point is burning it is destroying our environment. At some point even the uneducated masses will understand it. I hope it is not too late by then. Certainly most oil producing countries like Norway and Saudi Arabia understand it and are preparing for the future. It will happen here too.
     
  4. ct89

    ct89 Active Member

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    Fast is relative...I agree that you don't need 320KW charging at home but you still need to charge enough miles while at home to get you to your next destination. Personally I believe numbers like 30-50ish miles per hour of charging would be in line with what I would call fast-enough for at home.

    Right now my L2 220V/16A (3.5KW) circuit at home gives me something like 12 miles/hour...
    Get me something in the 3-4X the home charging rate we have today and I would likely be pretty satisfied...
    That equates to a 50A to 60A (~12KW) circuit...Well within what a typical 200A house service can handle...
    Might be a bit of a stretch to a 100A service.
     
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  5. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    That's nuts. That's 600 miles over night.

    I know a Model S 90D owner that just uses L1 charging every other day. L2 is enough to fully charge a 100D over night.
     
  6. Old Bear

    Old Bear Senior Member

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    I think we all agree on that. What I was trying to convey was that life would be simple if L2 or equivalent charging facilities were universally available. At home, where you work, where you shop, when you visit a friend's house, where you go out to dinner, when you use a parking lot or garage, etc.

    Fast Charging capabilities are important only for vehicles in constant service that don't have idle time available for conventional charging, or for longer trips when prolonged interruptions for charging would be unacceptably inconvenient.
     
    #126 Old Bear, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  7. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    That. However, even that goes away with longer range. With a true 350 mile range, 120kW is enough. With 450 miles of range, 50kW is enough.
     
  8. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    And with 320 kW, ~ 75 kWh is enough, better and cheaper.
    And of course has the ancillary benefit of spreading the battery production to more cars.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Keep in mind that your L 2 charge rate on the Prime is limited by the car's onboard charger. BEVs with faster chargers already make use of 40 to 50 amp circuits, and that is more for a case that their full charge was nearly exhausted, and a full charge is needed the next day.

    This is really only needed to quiet critics and show up hydrogen support at CARB. Once the public accepts charging times from 120kW charging for long trips, the expense of 320kW will only be needed for things like emergency response vehicles, and those will mostly still have an ICE.
     
  10. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    I see some members from Boston here. I lived in Boston for 24 years since I was 15 (I have not lived there since 2004). I bought my first car there and learned how to drive there. I also parked my car on the streets of Boston pretty much the whole time I lived there. And not only I. Just a bout everyone else did also. Overnight street parking is a huge thing for many, many drivers. EVs do not work in this case. At all! I (and millions like me) lived in an apartment without a parking facility. I parked on the streets of Brighton/Allston with a residential sticker on the window. No way to implement any kind of charging infrastructure in this case. At least I am not seeing it. What say you? Is that a pitfall of EVs? Or is it just a hump I can not see over?
     
  11. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    I don't disagree since I'm buying a Tesla now, but 320 kW charging will allow < 10 minute stops every two hours at 70+ mph driving speeds.
     
  12. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    London has an innovative solution: they put sockets into lamp posts
     
  13. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    I don't see it working in Boston. I just don't. Parking scene in Boston (as I am sure is similar in other large cities like NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.) is like blood sport. If you add a charging port to the equation there will be blood in the streets :) I hope I m wrong.
     
  14. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    To be clear ... a socket in every lamp post. Effectively, no dedicated EV spots. If you can park, you can charge
     
  15. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    And who pays for the juice? And why won't a person with a car up from mine (but no post/plug) not unplug me, steel my cable and plug their own car? Urban living is a bit of a different game than suburban. Most people live in urban areas, though and it's an important part of the infrastructure.
     
  16. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    But then you need chargers in geometrically more places. Thousands instead of hundreds.

    That's harder than it sounds because street lights run on a wide variety of voltages. Ours, for example, run on 277V. That's actually pretty common because it's the line-to-neutral voltage of a 480V line-to-line Y-connected 3-phase system.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Boston also has exceptionally high electrical rates that puts EV at cost parity with gas miles.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    My 5-ton AC compressor is on a 60 amp breaker so I agree that it is practical for a 200 amp service. Of course if all 6 homes on my 50 KVA transformer had similar EVs, there would be a problem as that adds up to about 80 KVA (I allowed for a less than perfect load factor).

    JeffD
     
  19. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    Yes, and Boston is not even close to California, where they pay close to $0.25/kWhr. If and when the electricity becomes the main energy source for transportation all that will change, obviously. Gas currently includes lots of taxes for roads, etc. that electricity does not. So that will all have to be taken into consideration.

    Clearly gas is still way cheaper on average than electricity. That is one of the things that will have to change in order for the critical mass of EV adoption to happen.
     
  20. ct89

    ct89 Active Member

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    Boston is a city, California is a state...I know several here who have identified their location as Boston seem to have almost 2x the cost/KWh as I do and I'm less than a hour outside that city...Rates can vary considerably based on lots of factors including location, metering, total consumption, etc.

    I suspect the same is true in a state like California...Lots of variation by location, even within cities, I suspect there is variation.
     
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