The Prius C might not see another generation because ...

Discussion in 'Prius c Main Forum' started by DKTVAV, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I'd almost like to see Toyota try that with an entirely different product.
    Similar to Honda's attempt with the Hybrid CRZ.

    I don't know how the vehicle drives or feels, but a co-worker at work owns one, and it's a good looking vehicle IMO. I'd have interest in a gas sipping but sporty Hybrid, badged a Prius or otherwise. But my concern is, if that becomes the "entry level" once again cost becomes prohibitive to a lot of people. Plus, a big draw for all Prius IMO has always been real tangible utility attached to the vehicle.

    A few years ago, we were celebrating the seemingly expanding "Prius Family".
    Today, like a Hybrid Auto game of CLUE, we look around and find some of the family members seem to be missing.
    I'm going with Miss Scarlet, At The Pump, With Lower Gas Prices as my "solve".
     
  2. Ashlem

    Ashlem Senior Member

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  3. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting! It looks like they kept the two best selling trims. Price increase is never welcome, but I just read elsewhere that all consumer pricing is up.
     
  4. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Nissans Hybrid Note appears to
    1. Be Cheap
    2. Fast sporty
    3. Will likely never sell in the US

    Too bad really cause you could see what a cheap sporty hybrid might do.


    What I wish Toyo would do is make all their Prius plug in and hybrid, even if the battery is only 2kwhr, should only add a couple hundred to the cost

    Ah well
     
  5. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Car pricing is in a weird bubble. More like a wall of foam. I think this article has a good take on it. It's a bit dated, but the numbers still hold up well.
     
  6. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    The problem I think with the Honda CRZ is that it's reported MPG is 36 city, 39 Highway.
    That's very close, near identical to the reported MPG for my Honda Fit.

    Personally? I think my Honda Fit is fun "sporty" to drive. Cheaper buy in price, has utility flexibility with the hatch-back configuration and the fold up seats, and doesn't have the Hybrid components to worry about as the vehicle ages. I think the CRZ is a sportier looking vehicle, but i would never buy one, because the Hybrid benefit is just too muted.

    That's NOT the same situation with the Prius c. But I actually waited on my Hybrid purchase for the Prius c to be released. And I will admit, I remember being disappointed when the MPG numbers for the Prius c were announced. Being almost identical to standard Prius MPG.

    I waited to make my purchase because on one level, I think I was hoping for a sub-compact Hybrid, that perhaps got tangibly better MPG than the standard size Prius.
    Even today, if the Prius c got 10 miles to the gallon MORE than a standard Prius? I think it would attract a lot of buyers.
     
  7. Skylis A

    Skylis A Senior Member

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    I think that a sub-$20k hybrid with excellent city fuel economy would attract more buyers.
     
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sunday driver DIY’r

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    With ergonomic, manual HVAC controls (like the Fit), no god-awful giant screen in the dash: I'd be all over that.
     
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Note it's only a $100 price increase (and adds pedestrian detection to PCS... not sure if that means it's upgraded to TSS-P or whether there's a TSS-C 2.0 as well)
     
  11. JosephG

    JosephG Member

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    Denso has developed a new PCS for kei cars using a stereo camera so it may still be TSS-C with better capabilities. We'll just have to see (is a stereo camera cheaper than radar? hmm)

    If I was king of Toyota, I would honestly bundle the Prius C into the Yaris family and put in a mild hybrid system (THS-M or Daihatsu's version of it). You only need 1 motor and a much smaller battery and for a small car like the Yaris it's still a very good option.

    By doing so, make the price difference smaller between the Yaris and the hybrid version and bring the price under 20k. This is a better deal for subcompact car buyers since generally they need a low upfront purchase price even if it means slightly higher long-term ownership costs and it's actually a better deal for Toyota too since such a car would have an actual transmission that needs service, etc. It would also give the Yaris a niche that it frankly lacks right now compared to other subcompacts (I guess it's the only car that still has a primitive 4-speed automatic?)

    The Prius C was a fantastic deal a few years ago, but the fierce competition in the compact hybrid category now (including the revival of the Prius One) really makes the Prius C at over 21k a poor offering. Same with the Yaris, both need something new.
     
    #51 JosephG, Aug 14, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  12. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    The one way clutch on the Prime would actually enable a single motor manual transmission plug in hybrid

    Going for the sporty side that would be as simple as it gets and you could eliminate the starter and alternator along with downsizing the DC DC if you used smart electronics to limit output during motor shutdown
     
  13. JosephG

    JosephG Member

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    Because the federal tax incentive for PHEV favors the wealthy, a subcompact isn't a very good candidate for one. I suppose it could be done with a relatively small battery, but even then with the doubling of the standard deduction in the federal tax code starting this year it doesn't make much sense.

    The RAV-4 or Camry would be better for the next plug-in (or the upcoming Subaru using the Prime drivetrain, that should do very well). A subcompact is ideal for either going full out BEV or a mild hybrid because of the weight.
     
  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Possibly. Cameras are typically cheaper than radar. Subaru does have a stereographic camera setup for their "EyeSight" safety package.

    Would a mild hybrid have a large enough increase in mpg to make it worth the small jump? I mean, that's what Honda tried with IMA on the Civic and Accord.

    Small cars tend to have smaller engines which are usually more efficient. (take Toyota's new 1.2 litre engine which gets 41% thermal efficiency - more than the Gen 4 Prius' 1.8 litre). That makes the "engine off" part of the drive less of an impact on the overall fuel efficiency of the vehicle. However, a mild hybrid system would have a lower weight penalty (and the lower cost that you mentioned).

    The bigger gains are with the bigger vehicles. If we can get more of those above 25 mpg, (9.4L/100km), that'll make a large impact imo. (and with a smaller price increase - say similar to an engine upgrade)
     
  15. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    I have been sourcing lithium batteries and chargers and at the low end the price difference between 1kwhr complete packs and 2kwhr complete packs is about $50
    Slower lithium chargers (800watt) are also only about $50 before I pay all the shipping.

    And that is an individual trying to source cheap hobbiest level parts.
    The tax credit on a small battery (if there is one) is under $1000 which is the liability of most anyone who doesn’t own a house.

    A Prius as designed is 99% of a light plug in.
    The additional parts, especially now days with the existence of $79 (before shipping) EVSEs and other commodity prices parts mean that at an OEM level the cost of admission is pretty small.

    Toyo could easily offer low range EV on all Prii via a low cost option and in my mind would gain a lot of credit and fanfare if it did.

    Next my comment about the sprag clutch and one motor was to indicate the Prius C /fit could be built into a full hybrid with lower cost, more simplistic components while providing 99% of the economy and potentially a more enjoyable driving experience.

    That is not what Honda did, Toyota has a reliable high power one way clutch on the Prime that would allow something akin to an IMA to run full BEV at 100mph on the highway, Honda never could or would decouple the electric motor which meant you always had ICe friction at all times, which means you can’t truly shut the engine on and off on the highway which is an important element of regen on the Prius

    Although you loose ECVT, you gain simplicity and much fewer electronic components.
     
    #55 Rmay635703, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2018
  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Isn't that the definition of a mild hybrid? Or was JosephG thinking of the 1-motor setup like the Jazz Hybrid?
     
  17. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    A mild hybrid is directly coupled gas to EV

    A full hybrid will run either gas or EV or both,
    Honda never clutched the gas engine out,
    Adding a clutch makes it a full hybrid
     
  18. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Exactly.... o_O
     
  19. JosephG

    JosephG Member

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    I was thinking of the Jazz hybrid or the Swift hybrid. A petrol car with a very small motor to restart, assist, and apply regenerative braking (though these days they can sometimes coast on electric power)

    Basically, my reasoning is the mainline Prius is getting very close to the C in price with the reintroduction of the One trim so it's hard to see the market for the latter. Something has to be changed to distinguish it (for example, lower the price) or it should probably be pulled from the US market.
     
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  20. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I agree. Well one option is a subcompact SUV (like the CH-R, HR-V, Trax, Encore, Renegade etc).

    Another is make it a full EV in the $30k range (just below the Kona)

    Another is make a hot hatch version and have a racing version of it enter in a race.
     
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