The Toyota Mirai (FCV) Thread

California Hydrogen Coalition

Just when you think it’s dead

 

oh the irony. Tesla - selling with no federal incentives (& the last of the California manufacturturning plants - despite onerous regulations) able to turn a profit, while the fool cell industry continues begging for money from the state that continues chasing away businesses (higher taxes, virus shutdowns Etc). Irony on top of irony. Toyota took their headquarters and moved out of state. Sure! Give 'em another ¼billion .... it's not like the legislators pay for it out of their own pockets. I'm sure it'll work. Let's all repeat the chant, "in just 10 more years". 2030 ... just around the corner.
.

 

I already have charging stations at home. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

bring back the arnold

any way to find out how many pols the hydrogen lobby is funding and how much?

 

Wired a while ago said the mirai looks like people thought the future would look like in the 1970s.

2017 Toyota Prius Prime Plug-In Hybrid Photos and Info – News – Car and Driver


I don't know but the dash of the mirai looks dated compared to the much less expensive prius prime. Softex may be a good substitute for toyota leather, but its nowhere near as nice as lexus leather, and at the price ....

The exterior does look like some kind of distopian future, where the government selects artists, and a 7 year old picks the pretiest design. OK maybe not quite that bad, but those gills, air to water doesn't look like any future I want to live in.[/QUOTE]
it's encouraging to read old posts and see things come to fruition.

still waiting to say the same for mirai...

 

Hmmm for $3000 I could buy one for the sheet metal to do a motor swap, too bad the shipping is over $3000 on a car

 

It was never going to die. The bigger picture is what most people don't take time to consider. California wants shipping emissions to be significantly reduced. That means boats wanting to dock will need to find cleaner fuel alternatives. That also means trucks in the yard will need to do the same. Having a well established set of hydrogen stations helps with the truck part.

Reality is, there's a massive potential with hydrogen for industrial use. We will also see it in commercial use, for fleet vehicles and some passenger. The cold, hard fact that fuel-cells will co-exist with battery is overwhelmingly difficult for some to accept. Why? Diversity is vital.

Having diversity among green choices makes sense too. After all, it's entirely realistic that we could see come DC fast-chargers supplemental powered by hydrogen. Paying for top-tier service during peak hours is very expensive, which could make that alternative attractive... especially if it provides local employment opportunity. Think about the value of spreading power generation & capture to rural areas.

 

More no one wants a high pressure fuel tank on a car, CNG or hydrogen, to fail due to age related degradation, and replacing is cheaper than recertifying them.

 

And it is based from time of manufacturer.

CNG tanks in road vehicles have expiration date too. They are generally longer life than hydrogen tanks because of the lower pressures and less reactive fuel though. This because of concerns over wear and tear, and age effecting the safe use of the tank. It is a USDoT regulation, not planned obsolescence on the part of the manufacturer. The regulations also require regular inspection, so states that don't have inspections will have to adopt them if hydrogen cars become a thing.

I pointed out the age expiration leading to disposable cars before the Mirai arrived. luckily for the hydrogen promoters, the tanks in cars have a 15 year life(for CNG it'd be 25), which is plenty for a typical car. The output of the fuel cell would be down to half, and need to be replaced, long before you need to replace the tank.

 

Remember 2009 when hydrogen just need a little more funding and fuel cell vehicles would be just a decade away from viability?

California Air Resources Board Pushes for Restoration of DOE Funding for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles; Tackles the Four Miracles - Green Car Congress

That funding was restored and more added, with billions of dollars from the US, Japanese, and Korean governments. 2020 tokyo olympics was supposed to be the proof that fuel cells were better than plug-ins

By The Numbers | California Fuel Cell Partnership
Somehow those 50,000 by 2017 in california have become only 12,164 fuel cell cars and busses in the entire US and Japan. Talk about over promising and under delivering. Hydrogen stations in california have poor reliability and have cost many times more per car than was promised just 11 short years ago. We are further from chu's 4 miracles today than we were in 2009. Japan has been busily making hydrogen in Australia and shipping it to Japan to hide the costs and pollution associated with it. Maybe they will have the technical breakthroughs in only another 15 years. Why commercialize and subsidize the Nexo today when the rav 4 energi is a better vehicle? Why pay to get more mirai on US streets when the tesla model 3 kills it in terms of cost, performance, and desirability - hell refueling in a tesla model 3 long range is much more convenient and you can actually fuel it if you move.

 

15 years still got many years to go....

 

i guess ..... if 3 or 4 more equals 'many years'
.

 

How do you figure that number. Miria oldest model year is 2016. That’s gives the owners 13 to 14 years from now.

Oh did you see the news today??
China rolls out fresh policies to boost hydrogen vehicle sales

But what about all the people who don’t have an hour to kill at a supercharger or the people who don’t have access to charging at home or work. Not everyone wants a Tesla, sorry to inform you of that. Have you seen the 2021 Miria? It’s gonna make Tesla look outdated. Like or not Hydrogen is expanding worldwide. Buses, trucks, ships, around the world are already using the technology. Not sure why so much hate on something that works.

 

Hydrogen for light duty vehicles is foolish.
The infrastructure is stupid expensive.

Hydrogen, IMO, would be great for commercial sized buildings, grid backup, etc.
For short range, depo centered truck/bus routes it makes sense in some areas.

And yes, you can find some use cases for cars, if you ignore the infrastructure.
It is cleaner than ICE vehicles, but dirtier than BEVs.

 

as prez Ronald Reagan used to say, "there you go again". With over 300 miles range now, & with 99% of EV owners charging at home, it only takes 20 seconds to 30 seconds to unplug & plug. Not an hour. All new Tesla's, & the majority of the used - now charge around 200 miles in the 1st 30 minutes. No one sits at a charger on a long-distance trip trying to eke out that last 5 miles of top battery range where DC charging appliances slow down to home charging speeds. It's disingenuous to make that claim, as it's untrue in Practical terms - and one that only the fuel cell industry tries to pass off as truth , which only serves to hurt their own cause. On cross-country trips you DC/QC ... make your nature call, order a burger, eat it, and you're back on the road.

that Minority are the only ones who need to occasionally stop at a supercharger for 15 minutes, or when they do their shopping or movies or whatever, where they go to any one of the many public Chargers around most cities all across the nation & globe.

most importantly, looks aren't what really matters. What matters is you can drive your car wherever you want, not at the paltry number of expensive refuel station that hydrogen has, where if you get their 2nd or 3rd in line you have to wait for the 10,000 PSI tank to refill, which would be much longer than a quick 200 miles on a supercharger.

, just because people that are knowledgeable contradict the foolishness of SOME uses for hydrogen - it doesn't equate to hate, so it doesn't make sense to brand It that way. The only possible notion of hate might be where the fuel cell lobby keeps lying decade after decade, that it will put 10's of thousands of vehicles on the road within the next 10 years. And then they say it again when that date expires ..... and then they say it again .... and again. Nothing wrong with hating lying Liars, right?.
BTW ...
when Austin points out all of the various hurdles of hydrogen ever becoming practical for automobiles, a response starting with "But what about all the people who ....." - simply does not address impractical points of hydrogen. It leaves the Impractical issues unanswered. Yes 100% electric cars are not for everybody. Nobody is arguing that issue, so, raising it is just raising a strawman and deflecting.
If it's any consolation, most here hope that hydrogen cars someday may be practical. But right now, calling them practical? Nor are they clean when most often they use non renewable natural gas (or even coal) for hydrogen reforming. Why is it the lobby never advertised those kinds of facts.
.

 

Back when GM had those Equinox FCEVs running around here, the only place they could refill was in Tarrytown, NY. I was in central Jersey, hopping onto the southbound Garden State Parkway and there was one of those FCEV in front of me, heading the same way. All I could say was good luck fueling up.

 

The end of use date is from the day of the tank's manufacture. 2016 Mirai's had do not refuel dates in 2029, so only 13 years before a new tank was needed. With Toyota over estimating how fast Mirai's would sell, some of the following model years could have less.
2016 Toyota Mirai: "Do Not Refuel After 2029"?

13 years isn't bad, but owners are going to ditch cars before that when the more expensive fuel cell needs to be replaced, because it is only producing half the power.

Being discussed over here.
China Dumps Fuel Cell Research $$ | PriusChat

The SAE hydrogen refueling standard allows up to 15 minutes to fill 5kg. That is 15 minutes from when the pump starts dispensing. People with Mirais and other FCEVs have had to wait longer already.

There is no hate for the technology. Refueling infrastructure to support cars in the US will cost billions of dollars. The companies that want to build those cars might be getting some hate, because they want tax payers to fund the infrastructure build out. Companies that would supply the hydrogen don't want to pay has it is a poor investment to them with the success of hydrogen FCEVs being an unknown.

 

Editor's note: We assume the Mirai tanks have a 15 year certification rating before the car is manufactured, so the consumer receives that maximum amount of useful life - minus the time it takes to ship and then sell the Mirai