There are no homosexuals in Iran...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Sep 24 2007, 05:40 PM) [snapback]517179[/snapback]</div>

I know our enemy. They hijacked four planes the moringin of September 11, 2001 and flew them into the Pentagon, the World Trade Center towers and a field in PA!!! That is not an enemy that can be rationalized with!

Iran, (along with the Saud's, no I don't trust them as far as I can throw that dustbowl of a country either, but for the time being they put on a nice face.) supplies and funds the groups, either directly or indirectly. Iran uses these groups, smartly, to obfuscate the focus of the world from Iran and to cause sufficeint discord that when Iran makes its move they will have little resistance.

Every move by Iran has been a direct parallel to that of Nazi Germany, starting with the "students" revolution (re: brownshirts) through the calls for peace. I am just waiting for the white piece of paper.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 25 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]517413[/snapback]</div>

let me see here -

Iran bars/kills all homosexuals and Columbia U. invites him to speak and the US Arme Forces/ROTC has its own policy vis a vis homsexuals that does not involve murdering them and they are not allowed on campus........

Columbia U. would invite Hitler to speak who slaughtered all its undesirable people but wont invite the Minuteman Project founder to speak - or even protect his right to speak when there.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveLeePrius @ Sep 25 2007, 07:52 AM) [snapback]517390[/snapback]</div>

Well this is just on ignorant, biggoted, racist comment, reading a lot into the "I'm not gay" comment.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RobH @ Sep 24 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]517162[/snapback]</div>

Actually, If you listen to his speach (except maybe the homosexual part) he really sounds like an American Liberal, for sure a Democrat!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 25 2007, 08:59 AM) [snapback]517413[/snapback]</div>

Which part?

These do not explain your assertion that the United States had fewer homosexuals in the past:

You flatly stated that there were fewer homosexuals in those days. Whether homosexuality was culturally acceptable then is a totally different issue.

May I suggest that you take a look at Alfred Kinsey's 1948 report on Sexual Behavior in the Human Male?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 25 2007, 01:04 PM) [snapback]517469[/snapback]</div>

No the Democratic liberal would be the one who introduced him. The one who called him a petty and cruel dictator.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Sep 25 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]517488[/snapback]</div>

Dude, chill. seriously. next time i'll do the whole [sarcasm] [/sarcasm], will that help?

I was trying to make the point that in our not too distant past our country was making the same claims as Iran about homosexuality, despite the fact that the only thing that's changed between then and now is the cultural acceptability of such a lifestyle. I'm sorry if my method of getting that point across (stating something that is very clearly incorrect and going on to explain why such a statement was seen as correct at the time) doesn't appeal to you.

Seriously man...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 25 2007, 02:44 PM) [snapback]517498[/snapback]</div>

do you honestly believe what you are saying? I dont remember the US govt sanctioning the public execution of homosexuals - nor do I believe i recall a US President claiming that there are no homosexuals in the United States of America.

The differences are huge - and consistent - and to some unrecognizable - like Mr. Bollinger for one.... and you thought i was referring to someone else didnt you???

 

Dude, i'm simply making the point that in our not to distant past Homosexuality was as taboo culturally here as it is currently over there. do you disagree with that? If you do, why don't you talk to someone who was gay 30 or 40 years ago. It might open your eyes.

No, the government didn't kill or imprison anyone for it (as i've stated in a previous post if you would actually READ what i say). but there were plenty of homicides and violence that could be traced back directly to ones sexual orientation. In that respect, how different are we really? Their government says it's not ok and executes people, sending a pretty clear message to the entire populous to stay in the closet. Our government said it was ok, and yet people were still killed due to it...

You decide which is a better situation. both are horrible.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 25 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]517533[/snapback]</div>

dude - the fact that you CANNOT differentiate which would be a "better situation" - both are bad, but ---- GOVERNMENT SPONSORED KILLING OF HOMOSEXUALS vs individuals acting on their own stupidity to kill homosexuals - is the BIGGEST problem of the two. Again, I highlighted for your approval what should be the more "horrible" of the two.

the fact that you cannot identify real dangerous evil is the issue in my opinion.

dude, do you honestly think that individuals acting alone are as dangerous or as bad as GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED MURDER - SERIOUSLY DUDE - YOU NEED A V8

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 25 2007, 11:57 AM) [snapback]517410[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I am pastor, so I do believe it God. As with my other options I was trying to challenge certain belief systems. With this one-- those who somehow think killing for any reason (not just before birth) is compatable with Jesus....

PA P

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 25 2007, 02:56 PM) [snapback]517538[/snapback]</div>

Seriously dude, there's no need to yell. I never said which was worse, or made any implication how i feel on the issue. Instead, i was simply pointing out that while the governmental stance in the two situations was different, the cultural stance was not.

Why do you have to make such a huge issue of this? Why do you and IsrAmeriPrius have to attack for saying that :gasp: their cultural outlook on homosexuality is the same as ours was in the past? Is this an untrue statement?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 25 2007, 02:26 PM) [snapback]517591[/snapback]</div>

In America in the 1950's, some people killed homosexuals and faced criminal prosecution.

In Iran today, the government's criminal prosecutors kill homosexuals.

You can't see the difference between those two situations?

 

I see the difference just fine, thank you very much. do you not see the similarities in the cultural attitude towards homosexuals?

You and Berman are quick to point out the difference between what the government and the citizens do, but you guys seem woefully ignorant of how culture and public opinion can effect people's lives, and you seem darned stubborn when it comes to accepting the fact that our society might have had some similarities with another society that you label as evil and want to go to war with.

 

Eagle... you're not alone. I see the similarity. Whether our government sponsored the killings of homosexuals (or blacks or whomever) doesn't matter as much really as the fact that they (the government) turned a blind eye to justice in those types of killings. When 'justice' towards the killers was carried out by a jury of the 'peers' of 12 straight, white men who just let off the murderers for some inane reason, I actually think that's worse than the government straight out sanctioning the crimes. At least with the latter you know where you stand. With a government that lies and says 'we have justice for all' and then gives justice to the priviledged select (usually straight white men of Republican political leanings) of the specific time period, we really truly have a bigger problem on our hands than we realize.

 

Priustorm and Eagle;

I've kind of gone a little blind after reading the last two posts, just thinking if that is the opinion you have of the United States, what a miserable life you must have!

Still blind, wow, I can smell the bile and vitriol from here!

 

Unlike you, some people are capable of recognizing the faults in their culture and country, both past and present. We recognize the problems that our society faced and dealt with, and the evolution of that society towards one that contains no hatred or bigotry.

FWIW, I know (and i think PriuStorm does too) that a vast majority of those problems are behind us, with new ones currently being dealt with.

Inequities in our country's past have been very well documented. As have the steps we've taken that have, overtime, smoothed out these inequities (but haven't completely eliminated them yet).

I don't have a "miserable" life. Unlike some people on this board, i don't live in a world of hatred and fear of groups and cultures i don't know or understand. I'm not ignorant of my country's past or present, and do plenty of work (and see plenty of progress) in my community to continue down the path that will eventually lead use to a culture where all people are truly considered equal.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Sep 26 2007, 01:42 PM) [snapback]518022[/snapback]</div>

Ah, that would explain why you don't get it.

 

PriuStorm/Burritos/Eagle
There's a difference between recognizing faults in your society and focusing your life on them. I recognize those faults and do what I can to discourage that kind of behavior. However, that said, I am not blinded by moral rationalization to the point that I equate the actions of the U.S. Government and the people of the U.S. with the actions of Iran. Go to Iran and demand a civil union and see what happens!

Similarities are not Equivalencies. To be similar does not make you equal. To argue such a thing means that you are unable to take a stance on any moral issue. (moral as on a social level, not a religious one)

People in glass house can throw stone, they just need a good glazer. The U.S. has a very good glazer, (good thing too) because it throws a lot of stones, some of which hit home. The difference is we care that the windows are broken and go about fixing them. Others just are thankful for the extra ventilation!

Remember, by your statements it is OK for Iran to persecute Homosexuals because in the U.S. has. Or maybe instead of focusing on the fact that Iran persecutes homosexuals, you use that as a seaway to criticize the U.S. because it has/had persecuted homosexuals. Why do the bad actions of another focus your attention on the bad actions of the U.S.? Why is the first thing that you do when someone criticizes Iran for its persecution of homosexuals is say that you can't do that because the U.S. has persecuted homosexuals in the past?

Sounds like a very evangelical position, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." Are you sure you’re not an evangelical????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 26 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]518127[/snapback]</div>

A difference indeed. Neither am I focusing my life on them, but at least I am ABLE to see that our society is not all peaches and cream.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 26 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]518127[/snapback]</div>

Who is talking about Equivalencies? The discussion I joined talked about recognizing 'similarities in the cultural attitude'. Perhaps you should read your own post and note that Similarities are not Equivalences.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 26 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]518127[/snapback]</div>

Hold your horses on the analogies, pls. If you can't even understand the language as it's written directly, then don't try smoke and mirrors to try to spin it clearer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 26 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]518127[/snapback]</div>

Whoa! By whose statements?? I went back and reread to see where anyone said it's OK for Iran to persecute Homosexuals because the U.S. has... I don't see it anywhere. Don't address me as having said anything like that, because I haven't. Again, the distinction of 'similarity', not 'equal'.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 26 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]518127[/snapback]</div>

First of all, I didn't say anything of the sort. In fact, I don't see anywhere where anyone says y ou CAN'T do that. Seems to me that some of you are getting your undies in a wad because someone called a spade a spade. The U.S. may be a better place to live currently than some of these other places in the world today, but that doesn't mean it was always that way. And... to those who still have rose colored glasses on, take them off once in a while and take a look at some of the headlines today and in recent times around the U.S. (Jena 6, Mathew Shepard, illegal unwarranted war on Iraq, etc.)... there's still work to do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Sep 26 2007, 04:02 PM) [snapback]518127[/snapback]</div>

Your 'reply' is so full of misquotations. I could ask you the very same question.