Things cops want you to know...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Dec 11 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]360606[/snapback]</div>

Nitpicking here, I admit, but actually the 9/11 terrorists didn't have to go to jail.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Dec 11 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]360606[/snapback]</div>

In the old South, police officers were often members and even leaders of the KKK, and were involved in the cold-blooded murder of Blacks and civil-rights workers. They were, of course, protected by their brother officers.

More recently, there are occasional reports of extreme police brutality, occasionally resulting in death, which only come to light because of an independent witness or videotape.

In the police, as in the military, there's a strong sense of brotherhood and mutual protection, and often a sense of being a bulwark against bad guys, and as a result it takes a very brave cop to report a brother cop for a serious crime.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Dec 11 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]360606[/snapback]</div>

He was forced to resign, but he was allowed to appoint his successor, who granted him a full and complete pardon even before a proper investigation could be conducted. An ordinary citizen would not have been let off scot free after merely losing his job, on the spurious grounds that "he's suffered enough." He was even allowed to keep his pension and all the very significant perks of an ex-president.

Otherwise I agree with the tone of your post. And it's good to see you on again, Natalie.

 

The truth is cops are out there to protect our asses, and quite frequently put themselves at risk over the stupidist things. Think of all those highway stops where the cop's back is to oncoming traffic, with rigs blasting by, needing only a brief momentary distraction to move that steering wheel less than a centimeter, and wham-o! ...and all for what? To give Suzi Soccermom a ticket for speeding, or worse yet, a warning...

In all the times I've been pulled over, I've ran the gambit of cops. I'd peg it at 80-85% of cops are decent, and obviously, I've ran into my share of those not so nice. No system of justice will ever be perfect until we can successfully, and accurately read minds. The phrase, "gotta crack a couple eggs to make an omlet", I think, best describes the judicial system as a whole.

IMO, the INSURANCE companies are the ones blame for a lot of the crap cops deal with. I've always stated, I would GLADY pay a several hundred dollar speeding fine, directly to the town/city of anywhere, as long as my insurance doesn't go up TOO much. However, some States are worse than others in this respect, and the increases are sooo outrageous, and lasts sooo long, it compells the average person to, at the VERY LEAST, challenge the ticket and hope the cop doesn't show for the appeal hearing (speaking from the Massachusetts perspective). For example, in MA, a $100 ticket for speeding, can easily turn into a total of like $3,000 over three years, and that's IF you plead guilty and decide to pay. My proportion might not be 100% accurate, but it's close, and makes the point. In Massachusetts, it's actually become totally viable to fight any ticket you get, and therein lies a lot of the problem...

...anyway, as I've said before, the cops are the good guys, and bless their souls, put themselves at mortal risk over the stupidist things because it's their job. it's something i could never do. hats off to all of 'em...

h34r:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Dec 11 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]360731[/snapback]</div>

Like we always said in prison: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Or to paraphrase for the present situation, and to repeat more or less what's already been said here by a gentleman I don't often agree with: If you can't afford to pay the fine and the added insurance, drive within the speed limit and don't run the red lights.

You seem to get a lot of tickets for a man who's so concerned for the safety of the officer who's got to stand on the traffic side of your car to give you the ticket.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 12 2006, 01:24 AM) [snapback]360763[/snapback]</div>

Sure do, 'cause I know all too well what can happen, and for what reasons... FWIW, when I get pulled over, I make sure the cop is out of traffic... I'll go up to the next exit, pull into a parking lot, pull way into the grass, etc., I get them out of harms way as much as I can, and leave the "fight" for the courtroom... No one needs to get hurt because of something inherently stupid.

Keep this in mind though, the tickets I've gotten, are only an expression of small fraction of the stuff I've gotten away with over time... They are the times when I've been careless in some respect or other, for example, letting a cop see me before I see them because I didn't scan deep enough when blasting onto a highway from an off ramp... that sort of thing...

I tend to get nailed for the stupid crap, 80 in a 55, illegal passing, driving somewhere I shouldn't, "misuse of lanes", that sort of thing, all things I've beaten in court at one point or another (of course, at this level, a lot of what the Judge decides depends upon depends if he has gas or not).

..the REAL hooliganism is unspoken, and I will not write about simply because I feel it might jinx me.

h34r:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 12 2006, 01:24 AM) [snapback]360763[/snapback]</div>

Sorry Daniel, I just don't buy this at all. I have doubts whether that truly represents a significant cross section of the incarcerated. Sure, they might say that for bad nice person points when they're ALREADY behind bars, but if they all truly felt that way, why bother with defense attorneys? Just tell the judge you did it and be on your merry way... On top of that, I doubt you were placed in anything remotely resembling a hardcore prison. What's the extent of your "bad assedness"? Civil disobedience? Arrested for protesting something or other? Obviously, you don't have to answer, truthfully, I care not, my point is only that I'm skeptical...

 

The police are the umpires of the real world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 11 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]360667[/snapback]</div>

Your post, as always, is great. But just to nit-pick a little bit myself ... Nixon, in accordance with the 25th Amendment, appointed Ford VP after Agnew resigned in 1973. Ford, of course, became President when Nixon resigned because of the same Amendment.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE( @ Constitution of the United States of America)</div>

 

So, here's a question (thought of it reading priusguy04's list of excuses):

If you turn your headlights on and rotate the nob all the way down, the lights on the spedo go off completely (thus making it look like you don't have a display). If you did this, and explained to the cop that you have an appointment at the dealer the next day or something, do you think he'd let you off? IMO, it's a poor design on the Prius that those lights can be turned all the way off, but all the same...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Dec 12 2006, 09:26 AM) [snapback]360841[/snapback]</div>

I thought that this was a great idea, but when I tried to implement it the policeperson said: “I understand sir that your dash lights don’t work, but its noon and the sun is shinningâ€! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Dec 11 2006, 08:52 PM) [snapback]360774[/snapback]</div>

In other words, you have so little concern for public safety that you drive recklessly any time you don't see a cop in sight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Dec 11 2006, 08:52 PM) [snapback]360774[/snapback]</div>

Of course you never know for sure how sincere a person is, but most of the prison inmates I've met accept that they broke the law and got caught, and are in prison of their own doing. Sure, they try to get out of it. Why shouldn't they? They don't want to be in prison, so they fight it in court. But they don't (with few exceptions) claim to be innocent once they're behind bars.

I never tried to be a "badass" and I never thought of myself as a "badass." The most extreme of my crimes was the time I passed a pick and shovel through the fence gate at a Minuteman III nuclear missile silo, climbed over the fence, and began digging a hole next to the concrete lid of the silo. If I recall the numbers correctly (this was more than 15 years ago) my hole was 6 feet long, 5 feet wide, and 3 1/2 feet deep (according to the Air Force report) when the guards (who arrived about an hour or so after I had begin, but who watched me from the road for another hour or two before intervening) entered the silo enclosure and arrested me. I announced that I was there to dig the silo out of the ground as an act of citizen disarmament. And no, I did not expect to complete the task. It was a symbolic act of protest.

I spent two nights in jail and was then released. Five months later I was subpoenaed to court, where I was arraigned and released on my own recognizance. A few months later I was tried and convicted. I stated what I had done and why. I never claimed to be "innocent" of the act. I argued that what I had done was justified by the inexcusable evil of nuclear weapons. I never expected to be acquitted, and in fact I refused to allow my attorney to make a motion which would have gotten me off on a technicality: The prosecutor had neglected to "prove" that the missile silo belonged to the Air Force. I was found guilty, and in a later hearing I was sentenced to serve six months in federal prison. The actual charges were two misdemeanor counts: trespassing and damage to property (the hole in the ground, which the Air Force claimed was $60 in damage). I had been free, without having posted any bond or signed any agreements, for 11 months between the time of my crime and the time I turned myself in at the assigned prison.

Altogether I was in 4 different prisons: Yankton, SD; El Reno, OK; Oxford, WI; and Sandstone, MN. The extremes were Yankton, a "country club style" prison with no fence and no guards at the perimeter (all the inmates had "out" status, meaning the Bureau of Prisons considered them non-dangerous and safe to allow off the prison grounds) and El Reno, which had a double chain-link fence with the space between filled with coiled razor wire and guard towers with machine guns, and where there were prisoners of all security levels. Yankton had college-style dormitories with rooms holding from 4 to 12 people. In fact, it had once been a college, though the rooms originally held half that number. El Reno was just like a set from an Edward G. Robinson prison movie: 4 levels of cell blocks, tiny two-man cells, and bars that clanged open and shut with such force that they'd take your hand off if you put it in the way. Sandstone was in between. Inmates lived in giant barracks, and the prison was surrounded by a single chain-link fence topped with coiled razor wire.

At all the prisons I was at the food was good but very fattening. Apparently the BOP had learned that fat, well-fed prisoners, are easier to control than thin, hungry ones. I have heard from friends, however, that the quality of the food has declined since I was in.

I was not at Oxford long enough to form an opinion.

I also spent a day on a prison jet (we called it Fed Air) and a day and a half on a prison bus, as I was being transported from one prison to another.

The comportment of the guards was inversely proportional to the security level of the prisoners. At Yankton, where the prisoners were zero security, and at Sandstone, where the prisoners were level 1 and level 2, the guards were nasty and verbally abusive. At El Reno, where there were security level 10 prisoners and everything down to level 1, the guards were never abusive.

I believe I got a pretty good look at the prison system and its inmates, from the inside, and saw the full range of prison styles, and the full range of both prisoners and guards. It was an educational experience I do not regret in the least.

Sorry if this reply is so long. But you asked whether I'd ever been in a hardcore prison, and a simple "yes" probably would not have been very convincing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 11 2006, 08:59 PM) [snapback]360666[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the reply. I've always thought that honesty is the best policy. I figure that cops probably hear mostly lies their entire career and probably get tired of it. I don't have to interact with the public this much and even the occasional inaccountability that I see grows tiresome. If someone does something wrong, they should own up to it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 12 2006, 11:25 AM) [snapback]360870[/snapback]</div>

Nothing to add. Just wanted to say that was a really interesting and thoughtful post. Thanks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 12 2006, 06:23 PM) [snapback]361295[/snapback]</div>

Not at all. I went in with my eyes open, after much pondering over the expected consequences of my act, and much advice from people who had gone to prison for protesting nukes before me. The experience was an educational one and has made me a better person. I no longer make generalizations about prisoners. I have lived with them, and I know they are all types, but mostly decent human beings who just happened to get caught doing something our legislators have arbitrarily decided to pass laws against. And most of them are there for being poor, because with a good lawyer most of them would not have gotten prison time. A surprisingly small number of people are in U.S. prisons for violent crime.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 12 2006, 06:23 PM) [snapback]361295[/snapback]</div>

No, they didn't. The two charges I was convicted of were the original two against me: One class-B misdemeanor for tresspassing, and one class-A misdemeanor for damaging their dirt to the tune of $60 by digging a hole in it. (For which I served six months in federal prison, which was what I expected, though I knew there was a possibility of getting a year.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 12 2006, 06:23 PM) [snapback]361295[/snapback]</div>

Although my last act of nonviolent civil disobedience was in the early 90's, other people have continued to do this sort of thing up to the present, and to my knowledge, while the police have, on average, become more brutal while arresting people, nobody in the Plowshares movement has been slandered with the name of al Qaeda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 12 2006, 06:23 PM) [snapback]361295[/snapback]</div>

People did ask me "What if you had set off the missile?" My reply was that if one person with a pick and shovel could set off an unguarded Minuteman missile by digging a hole next to it (or even by damaging the silo lid itself, as others have done) then these missiles are a lot more dangerous than even I have been saying, and the need to get rid of them is even more urgent.

Nobody in authority has ever suggested that anything an outside individual could do could ever set off one of these missiles or its warhead.

The real problem is that a psychotic president could set then off. And we have no sanity test for presidents.

 

From the Nuclear Resister, Issue # 144, November 11, 2006
Available in PDF from this site.

Fr. Carl Kabat, a Catholic priest, has been damaging nuclear missile silos in protest against nuclear weapons for many years, and has spent far more time in prison than out since he began. He's part of a larger movement, known as Plowshares. Every time he gets out he rests up for a short time, and then does it again. He has a sincere, religiously-motivated belief, that god does not want people to kill each other, and that it is his duty as a citizen to protest against our government for building and threatening the use of weapons of mass destruction. If asked, he will say that all weapons and all war is wrong. He directs his protest against nukes because he sees them as the worst example of the weapons of war.

He will have been sentenced by now for the above action. But I am so out of touch with the movement that I've not heard how much time he got. He'll serve his time as a model prisoner, as he always does, and when he gets out he'll do it again.

The Nuclear Resister used to cover only protests against nukes. It has broadened its scope, which might lead a newcomer to wonder at its name. Like many things, the name has stuck though the function has widened from anti-nuke to anti-war. If you dig far enough back (around 1989/1990/1991) you'll find my name mentioned in connection with several protests, though only one of them led to significant prison time. Other protests only got me a few days in jail now and then.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 13 2006, 10:19 AM) [snapback]361513[/snapback]</div>

This is an interesting way to spend his life. He's making zero impact on anything except the budget for the court and penal system. No one cares that he's doing this, hardly anyone at all knows he's doing it.

What a waste of his life. Isn't there anything productive he could be doing? Anything at all that would make a positive impact on the world?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Dec 13 2006, 09:56 AM) [snapback]361620[/snapback]</div>

But on the other hand, think of the positive side. Food in prison is probably a little bit better than at your average monastery and the prison populace could probably use the services of their new "resident chaplain" far more than his fellow monks.

I could be wrong about the food, but I've seen and shared what the monks eat.

As a previous nuke-keeper, I still think that in this savage world we occupy, Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) had a certain logic that kept us from having to learn Russian. If we, the noble and learned band of gentlemen, had dismantled all our weapons, I have a hard time believing the Soviets would have seen our pure spirits and done likewise. As it was, it worked. We're still around while the Soviets went into retraining. Nobody killed anybody (nuke-wise) and I never had to make that long flight.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Dec 13 2006, 09:46 AM) [snapback]361604[/snapback]</div>

That of course is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Clearly, he feels called to repeatedly speak out. Some in the Plowshares movement liken nuclear weapons to death camps that deliver. The Germans mostly kept silent. A few did speak out, and you might say they "accomplished nothing." But when silence is complicity, there are those who will not remain silent.

Speaking for myself, and my few years of nonviolent civil disobedience, I never thought that I would "make a difference" to the world. But it was necessary, for my own peace of mind, to say NO to nuclear weapons in a more emphatic manner. And one never knows where the flapping of the butterfly's wings will lead. I happen to know that one of my arrests (for which I spent 5 days in jail) resulted in a classroom of schoolchildren having a discussion over whether nuclear weapons were morally justified or not.

And while Carl is in prison, he is able to minister to people who, as an earlier poster mentioned, need it far more than his parishoners would if he had a parish. BTW, he is not a monk. He is a priest. In prison or out, a man can be of service to his fellow human beings. And while I went into prison prepared and centered, most of the men in prison have great need of a bit of human compassion. Carl has dedicated his life to a noble purpose. And he is following the path he believes god wants of him.

Ammon Hennesy used to protest against nukes, standing alone with a sign in front of his local P.O. They asked him, "Do you really think you're going to change the world?" He answered: "I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to keep the world from changing me."

 

So, who's right here? Or is it not quite that simple? Is there a pecking order among the organizations in the law enforcement community? (You're always seeing how much the locals hate the feds on TEE VEE)

NEWARK, N.J. -- A police officer who was fired after being convicted of careless driving claims he was caught between two unwritten rules of the road: Police don't hassle fellow officers, and nobody passes a state trooper --

www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-trooper-lawsuit,0,2102361.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines