This guy can get 59mpg in a plain old Accord. Beat that, punk

You know, I posted a link a while ago about a guy I know who routinely gets over 30 mpg in his Ford Explorer. I was yelled at, cursed at, and generally called a liar and an idiot. 30 mpg is not that much higher than the Explorer's rated highway mileage, yet it was deemed to be a total lie and generally impossible. One person said something like, "if that were true Ford would buy it back and take it apart to see what was wrong."

Yet here is a guy that has doubled his mileage, and you are all in awe. It just furthers the proof that most Prius owners hate SUV's for no reason other than that they are SUV's.

Anyway, it just goes to show the wacky driving techniques people use to increase mileage applies to ALL cars, including Ford Explorers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Jan 4 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]371041[/snapback]</div>

Well,

Probably. But that is not the case for me. In my case its a learned response. One tends to get that way when one gets run off the road, or nearly run into a bridge upright by a careless SUV driver. The typical Chicagoland SUV driver figures, I got this big thing, and I can be totally careless, and I wont get hurt. Being totally careless is dangerous to the rest of us. But, then there is also the wasted time in a traffic jam while the emergency services pull yet another careless SUV driver out of his upside down tilt-o-matic.


I do not remember criticising you for the 30 MPG Explorer driver, but I highly doubt he did that in City driving like Fireengineer was doing in the article. I can believe he may have done that in a closed course trial, like the one that resulted in a 112 mpg tank Prius mileage.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jan 3 2007, 09:11 PM) [snapback]370473[/snapback]</div>

Wow, times have changed. A picture of Wayne in a Prius! Wait maybe that's an insight. Anyway, he did participated in the Prius marathon and got 113 mpg.

I still remember how much he was opposed to Prius while comparing the MPG he could achieve with a Corolla. Then, he cherry-picked Focus PZEV and compare the low emission to the Prius. Of course, he failed to acknowledge that Prius has the best of both world in one package. He even attacked Prius' 0-60 mph time and ignored 30-50 mph passing performance.

You know how good Hybrid Synergy Drive is when you see a man like this, with a change of heart.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Jan 4 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]371041[/snapback]</div>

Hate 'em? Why hate 'em? They are great comic relief when that once-a-year ice storm hits here. But seriously, I just wish since about 99.9% of them are used as passenger vehicles, they met the same CAFE, safety and other standards that regular cars have to meet.

 

Hi All:

___I will try and answer some of the questions posed in the order that they were posted one by one …

___Hi Jeff. Very few actually because I try not to miss ANY green lights using rabbit and anticipatory timing techniques. I hit them when they are green ~ 90% of the time vs. the average driver hitting them maybe 50% depending on where they live as a best guess estimate. Anyone behind me gets the benefit. The rabbits are the ones I hope you would direct your anger at as they are idling away at the lights after “throwing it away†riding the discs down to a stop. Hopefully the article points listed below will answer other questions that you may have?

___Hi USB. The Picture is of me in my Accord and the FE figure you quoted was my average with the colder and raining night shift drive and that great Sunday morning block buster. As for Corolla’s, I am currently driving a review vehicle which I am putting through its paces even now in fact. I only have her for another 2 days but she does show some promise in 30 - 50 degree F temps we have been experiencing in the Chicagoland area this past week … This morning’s drive home allowed the following:



___If you would like to talk PZEV based Ford Focus’ and FEH’s, you are more then welcome to visit us as I love to discuss all the clean and/or fuel efficient cars we have available here in the US, Canada, Europe, and even the Far East!

___Yes indeed, HSD is an excellent design when it is taken advantage of. I have promoted Prius II, HCH-II, TCH and even FEH purchases to the nth degree as I believe they are the proper choice for most of our needs. The thing that saddens me most during my daily commute however is seeing a Prius I/II, HCH-I/II, TCH or FEH blasting up I-94/294 or I-55 through the Chicago area at 70 + in the far left lane jockeying for position with others to see who can be first to work, first back home or first in line at the next stop and crawl. Not all but maybe 75% of the 4 or so hybrids I see daily are pushing the NASCAR like realms while showing a lack of respect towards their hybrid automobiles capabilities as well as both the environmental and economic baggage that goes along with it. I tend to promote a more conservative and relaxed approach although some will violently disagree with me in this regard? We all live on one lifeboat and at our current rate; we are not plugging the holes in the boat as fast as we are creating them

___Thank you to all who came to my defense as well as linked this thread via PM and E-Mail a number of times these past 2 days!

___Without further adieu, here is a little addition I put together as well as an explanations to place the articles message in context as posted over at Mother Jones.

*******************************************************************************

___ … but let me at least analyze some of the articles discussion in context to the (HF 2006) weekends activities …

who at 6 feet 1 inch and 210 pounds looks too big to fit into this tin can two-seater. <-- I actually weigh 219 #’s as of this morning To many Holiday Cookies I guess

He’s wearing Nike running sneakers, shorts, and a baseball cap over his thinning sandy hair that says “CleanMPG.com,†the name of the Website he established with his friend Tom Baleno in the spring of this year, dedicated to “increasing fuel economy, mileage, and lowering emissions of whatever automobile you own and drive.†<-- This sentence was pulled from the article.

Everyone runs for cover, and I jump into a Toyota Prius owned by one of Wayne's hypermiling buddies, Dave Bassage. Puddles and high winds are a hypermiler's nightmare. "Nature's putting on its own energy show," says Bassage, watching the blasts of lightning through his water-splattered windshield. "This pretty much screws Wayne."

<div align="center">
This was just one pic of the Monsoon that hit. Anyone who was at HF2006 can attest as to the down pour and the winds ferocity.</div>

The speed limit is 55, and most of the traffic is zipping past at 75 or so, but Wayne hovers around 50 mph. He's riding the white line on the right side of the right-hand lane. <-- This Interstate is commonly referred to as the Tri-State Tollway or I-294 for those not familiar with the Chicago area Interstates. Speed limits are 45 minimum/55 maximum and is between 3 and 5 lanes wide. I like to RR while DWL at ~ 48 - 55 mph which is between the limits and 100% legal. Those driving 75 + do get pulled over once in a while as the IL. State Troopers appear to allow 19 over before they get excited.

I was full of anticipation, not because of where I was going, but because Wayne was going to drive me there. Driving with Wayne, I soon learned, was akin to riding a horse sitting in a saddle behind a great jockey—it’s exhilarating, yet terrifying. The analogy is not quite right because great jockeys, like most great car drivers, love speed, but Wayne, well, doesn’t. “Going 65 scares me,†he tells me later. Such high speeds also kill fuel efficiency. <-- This was pulled from the article unfortunately

"Buckle up tight, because this is the death turn," says Wayne. Death turn? We're moving at 50 mph. <-- The following is the turn in question and named by Mark B. (GreenAndBlue) when we were coming home in his 2005 Accord Hybrid after a Max FE segment run and Gliding for all she was worth …

<div align="center"></div>

___What is not mentioned is that I am usually ICE off about 1/3 of a mile before we exit the Interstate at 60 mph so as to achieve an entry speed of 51 mph while in the Accord. This exit is really 2 lanes wide (maintenance lane and road with no discernable lane markings) and has an ~ 35’ elevation climb as you make your way through the 270 + degree turn. By the time I reach the bridge deck, I am at 25 mph. I need to be traveling at 25 mph to make it over the crest of the bridge and Glide down the back side for another 5/8 of a mile w/ a right and into a Mall’s Ring Road while ICE-Off. The key here is entry speed is 51 mph but by the time I hit max G’s at the turns apex, I am already down to less then 38 mph and by the bridge deck, I am down to 25 mph.

"I hit the turn at 50, 51," he says. "I should have hit it at 52." <-- The HCH-II does not have the Glide capability of the Accord and this is why I wish I would have entered even hotter as it cost me some FE by restarting early after the long glide

Wayne loves acronyms almost as much as he loves FE (that's fuel economy). d-fas is a "draft-assisted fas," which means fasing while you're tailgating an 18-wheeler to reduce air resistance. <-- Sort of ... The proper way to perform a D-FAS is to approach a target at a higher rate of speed, FAS while you are in a Distant and glide into a Close-in if possible. From there, you will naturally fall back as seconds tick by eventually gliding naked waiting for the opportune time to re-start, re-engage, and Pulse back up to a speed for whatever comes next. Rarely will you ever be able to D-FAS in a HS P&G behind the same target as you never want to chase a target that has moved over 3 + blocks ahead and you are far back of 2 blocks when you hit your lower target in most cases.

As we're driving out of the parking lot, Wayne comes to the top of a small hill and tells me he's doing a fas. "What?" I ask. "That's a forced auto stop," he says, which is putting the car in neutral, turning off the engine, and gliding. It's illegal in some states—with the engine off, you can lose your power brakes after a few pumps, and with older cars, you can lose your power steering—but it's a favorite driving tool of many hypermilers. <-- I think most here know what a FAS is and the loss of power steering in any non-EPS based automobile is evident the second the ICE shuts down.

Wayne finally makes the turn. It's not the death turn of the previous night; it's a mini-death turn. "Because you guys are in the cab, and I've got milk in the back," Wayne explains, "I can't take the corner very fast." <-- This is a 45 mph limited roadway and I had a bag of breakfast groceries in the bed of the truck so I could not take any corner(s) like I normally would or the eggs, milk and bread would have become a mixture of French Toast without ever having left the truck Normally I can enter the subdivision at 32 - 34 mph but in this case, I had to enter at less then 20 thus causing a bit of a backup

Wayne and I go in to the supermarket to get milk, and when we return, Hobbit has the hood of the Ranger up, and to make a point, he puts his hand on the engine block. It’s about as warm as the morning air. The reason it isn’t hot is that Wayne’s only had the engine on for a minute or so during the two-mile drive here. Then Hobbit reaches inside the hubcap and feels the brake discs on the front tires. For most of us, they’d be hot from braking after even such a short commute, but Wayne’s discs are no warmer than the morning air. <-- This paragraph was pulled from the article

Linda Weidemann, of Fitchburg, Wisconsin, the organizer of the MPG Challenge at the Hybridfest, says that people make the mistake of seeing hypermiling as an all-or-nothing endeavor. “It’s not,†she says. “It’s like a grocery list. You can pick and choose the things you need.†Before we met, Wayne told me that with one lesson, he could improve my mpg by roughly 20 percent. <-- This paragraph was pulled from the article and it was by far the most succinct of anything mentioned. Thank You Linda!

"guys in Prius’ were bragging about 44 mpg, and I was doing better in a Corolla." <-- I believe this was an infamous Prius I/II driver arguing his superiority over everybody in fact.

We're at two car lengths.... Wayne takes a call from some friends in another car.... One car length.... I thump an imaginary brake pedal with my foot, just like my mother used to do while riding with me. <-- When we all left for HF 2006 from my home, I wanted to drive for maximum FE the whole route. I received I believe maybe 2 calls from Terry and his wife Cathy in their HCH-II and maybe one or two from Hobbit and Chuck (Delta Flyer) in Hobbits Prius II to get it moving or we were going to miss the Ice Cream Social. Dennis and I were already up to 95.x mpg about 15 miles out when we started receiving the calls to punch it up and forget about FE. The only choice I had while running 65 + was to pull into a Close in. The following pic was taken during our 15 - 20 minutes while flirting with that close in as well as the exact time Dennis had written that paragraph …

<div align="center"></div>

___This pic was taken on that warm afternoon drive with minimal traffic on I-94 Northbound into Milwaukee and I pulled a lousy 93.0 from her so you can see speed kills FE!!! I can pull higher FE then this driving through a Monsoon and 15 + mph headwinds on the way to New York for the Tour De Sol in 40 and 50 degree temps! I don’t recall receiving less then a 100 mpg segment in those kinds of temps over that kind of distance in an Insight and the following is what she allowed for that much faster trip then I wanted to drive

My drive to Madison while in Chuck’s Insight:
<div align="center">
Illinois to HF2006 in Chuck's Insight - FCD</div>

___A poor result at best. I should have just let Terry, Cathy, Chuck, and Hobbit go on ahead and met them 30 minutes later as that would have been the better thing to do for all our sakes.

___And the HF 2006 FE Challenge results as seen from Billy’s Insight after the FE Challenge:



___Finally, the two most important activities of the weekend … The first was when I let Dennis drive my Accord back to the O’Hare on Sunday morning. I was guiding him the entire way and he nailed down a 51.2 mpg segment over 30 miles from my drive dead cold to the O’Hare Departure terminal using only 3 FAS’ and DWL while between the limits and RR. I guided him using the Accord’s NAVI based TC and the iFCD as to when to accel and back off. This is where the 20% figure comes from while using an iFCD but he nailed down not just 20% greater then the EPA combined, he nailed down 76% > then the EPA combined with just one behind the wheel lesson not employing nearly the toolbox of tricks I would normally use and being perfectly legal the entire drive. And then the crescendo … Truly the most important aspect of the entire weekend was that Dennis purchased a brand new Prius II just a few weeks after arriving home in New York.

Friend purchases a brand new, 2006 Toyota Prius II for $18,155 + tax!

___That about does it for now. I just got off night shift and am a bit light headed as I typed this up. I can correct any misunderstandings in this thread in short order as a way of promoting Hypermiling to those that may not yet understand its implications. It is not an all or none approach. You can use what you feel comfortable with or when and where appropriate but please at least use some of the capabilities that your Prius II’s have offered as it is amazing vehicle when pushed to its limits as many here have experienced shortly after learning just a few of the techniques many of us use on a daily basis.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(xcel @ Jan 5 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]371162[/snapback]</div>

Yup, that's it. There are vehicles that support one or the other really well, which you endorse heavily. And that's the problem.

Improvements to *BOTH* emissions & efficiency at the *SAME* time from the *SAME* vehicle is something you still don't fully embrace.

Long ago, Prius proved you could get *BOTH*, revealing efforts to favor only one an incomplete solution. Now we have more choices, all confirming the same thing. Camry-Hybrid is the prime example. It is America's best selling car now available in a configuration that clearly delivers higher MPG and lower smog-related emission... at the at the *SAME* time.

That's why I started referring to those supposedly better choices by grade. A vehicle with only one or the other improved can never earn an "A". Homework incomplete. All goals not achieved. It's that simple. A grade of "B" should not be acceptable when it so darn easy to get an "A" instead. Some have called that knowledge like that INCONVENIENT, to which I strongly agree. Accept the reality that *BOTH* must be delivered.

 

I need to preface my post with the statment that I am an environmentalist. I want to use fewer of the earths resourses, leave a smaller foot print, and pollute less. I also admire others that have done what I am doing, and more, for longer periods of time, blazing the trial for the rest of us, so to speak.

That being said, I think the driving patterns Wayne utilized are absolutely insane. He routinely violates traffic laws and regardless of how good your intentions, turning off the motor in an ICE only vehicle is insane and illegal! I can see no reason to risk one's own personal health as well as the safety of other motorists one meets on the road for the sake of trying to get 50 or 59 mpg in a ICE accord. Buy a freaking Hybrid Dude!! That way, with your driving techniques you could be getting 80 plus mpg. Instead you own what, three ICE only vehicles?? Where's the logic there man? If you're that concerned about our environment, quit risking your safety, as well as that of the unsuspecting motorists you will meet in that curve going 52 in a 25 zone with your motor off, risking the loss of control of the power steering and power brakes.

I admire your conviction. I admire your intentions. As a retired National Park Ranger, member of the Sierra Club and Greenpeace, I have some pretty radical ideas as well, but the implementation of those ideas is what will eventually determine the success of the movement or not. Can you even buy insurance? You know, if you have an accident in your can with the motor turned off, its negligence per se, in other words, you will have no defense my friend. Be careful. I hope by your posts, others will not try to emulate your behavior.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rangerdavid @ Jan 5 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]371185[/snapback]</div>

Huh? :huh:

Where's the logic?

He is trying to prove that if you use *just* some of his techniques - especially the safe ones he often recommends - you can polute less and consume less in a regular gas only vehicle !!!!!

Not all the techniques he describes are dangerous. I certainly use quite a few and I swear by them and as a result I've become a better & safer driver than I was before.
Of course as a modern day FE pioneer, Wayne likes to make a "bolder statement" by including extreme techniques which, by the way, he often advises others not to use for legal and safety reasons.

Not everyone can afford a Hybrid vehicle. Sadly, the vast majority of the driving public will continue to drive Gas-only vehicles for a long while. We NEED people like Wayne to demonstrate that even these people can help. All it takes for these people to consume and polute less, is for folks like Wayne to prove that it can be done with just a few of his safer techniques. What the heck is wrong with that?

For those of us who drive and love hybrid vehicles, we should recognize Wayne's motivations, UNDERSTAND his mission, and applaude Wayne's efforts to raise FE awareness. He stands a chance to do at least as much for the "cause" than all our elitistic hybrid-egos put together.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rangerdavid @ Jan 5 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]371185[/snapback]</div>

One of my ongoing themes - is we have a lot of green people going about things in different ways. Some drive Prius, others with Honda hybrids, diesels, the more fuel efficient ICE cars....

Wayne had an Insight with 92mpg lifetime, and is most likely to get a Prius III when it comes out.


This is Wayne in north Chicagoland rush hour traffic around 5:30pm Friday, driving my car, en route to Madison, Wis. If memory serves me correct - the passenger is the author of the Mother Jones article mentioned on this thread. I'm like most hybrid drivers, more reluctant than most to let others drive it. He got 93mpg over 126 miles. I actually did better once by getting 98.9mpg over 141 miles, but the traffic was not near as much, so my run was problably not as impressive. I'd be certified insane handing my keys to him if he was actually dangerous.

Keep in mind that in smaller vehicles, you can shut the engine off and coast with control, but this could be impractical driving vehicles larger than an Accord, esp. if sharp turns are involved. At 1900 pounds, some question why Honda bothered to include power steering with the Insight.

I've been in a number of discussions people get strident about going 50mph in a 60 zone, but do you notice the people going 70 and faster? (suggesing a case of friendly fire here...) Worse yet, the sudden multi-lane change to make an exit, other distracted driving? It's the polar opposite of what Wayne is doing - driver not paying any attention to the road. Their solution to being safe - get a bigger vehicle and continue to chat on the phone.

I don't think we are that far apart on being green, etc. Wayne's driving record is excellent - better than mine {blush}.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Jan 5 2007, 09:14 AM) [snapback]371203[/snapback]</div>

Consume less gas - yes.
Polute less? Maybe not.
What if the catalytic converter gets cold due to the engine off and create more pollution from his Accord? These isn't a computer to protect that like in Prius. The point is, ICE-Only cars are not design to operate in these extreme ways.

Why trade off higher emission over lower fuel economy and safety over FE, if you can achieve all with HSD? If you are going to break the law and risk safety to get that MPG to prove something, that's fine. In the past, Wayne stepped over the line and compared the MPG he got with what others are getting with Prius (legally and safely) and asked why we even need hybrids (waste of money, extra weight, etc..). Well, I believe he answered his own questions during that Prius marathon (113 MPG), and it was done legally too.

It is important to raise FE awareness. Isn't it as important to do it the right way? Should we promote if it was done in an unsafe and illegal ways? The solution is available and Prius owners are proving it every mile. The fact that Wayne has a history of bashing Prius and HSD is discomforting. There are many other hyper-milers out there who deserve more attention and credit.

 

I agree with those comments supporting Wayne and disagree with those who are bashing him.

For john, who has done a wonderful job promoting the Prius I disagree that a car has to do both. I think it is nice when a car produces the minimum amount of emissions, but I am personally more concerned with GHG emissions and where those are concerned FE is most important. Not everyone is going to choose a hybrid, what Wayne is showing people is how they can maximize FE with whatever they drive.

For USB, I am not sure why you can't allow someone to have a change of heart, I don't remember when Wayne was bashing the Prius, I do know that some of the tips I have gotten from Wayne have helped me improve my FE quite a bit. I certainly have never gotten a response such as "stop driving that stupid car and go buy a Civic or Corolla."

For all, Wayne's driving style doesn't have to be copied, most people (myself included) would not be willing to FAS in a non-hybrid, but you can pick and choose which techniques work for you.

Wayne, keep up the great work and thanks for all your help!

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 5 2007, 09:39 AM) [snapback]371210[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveLeePrius @ Jan 5 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]371344[/snapback]</div>

Having a good driving record or not having accidents doesn't necessarily mean someone's a "safe" driver. I know more than my share of drivers who are menaces on the road, but have spotless records and have never had accidents.

FYI - I'm not saying that's the case with Wayne. I'm just saying you can't definitely say someone's a safe driver based completely on driving record.

Personally, I think taking a 25mph turn at 50 is unsafe and borderline reckless. For me, it's not worth a risk to my safety to gain 1 more mpg.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maineprius947 @ Jan 5 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]371346[/snapback]</div>

What I'd like to see is what can be done using moderate techniques. No FAS. No taking turns at twice the rated speed. Using reasonable techniques like slowing down a little bit, backing off the gas earlier before a stop, that kind of thing.

Right now the impression is "you can double the FE of an Accord by doing all of this". But what can get if I don't do all that?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maineprius947 @ Jan 5 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]371346[/snapback]</div>

Wayne's negative view of Prius was in Edmund's forum. Edmund made that thread (Are hybrids up to the chore?) read-only and took it offline due to the things that was said by him and other anti-hybrids. I think John's blog/site still has them recorded. That was before he bought the Insight and joined the Green Hybrid.

He seems to be all for hybrids now and saying good things about HSD but I still wouldn't trust him. I am still not sure what his motives are. I think he is doing it for fame and attention.

Wayne if you are reading this, acknowledge your past views and lets move on.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 5 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]371298[/snapback]</div>

This is a re-bash - skipping discussion for a stream of attacks. Let's rise above many partisan politicans on this thread.

The catalytic converter is warmed up in 2-3 miles - depending on outdoor temperature.

Just to name a few, Tony, Dan Krous, and Wayne have hypermiled in a Prius. Hypermiling goes with - not against a Prius - check out this Wikapedia article on hypermiling cars of choice.

Several times, it's been memtioned Wayne has warmed up to the Prius. I don't understand the intellect of those insisting on attacking him for past Prius comments when he has changed his position. Quite a number of Prius drivers such as Tony, Proco, efusco, hobbit visit www.cleanmpg.com regularly - why would they bother if Wayne was still a Prius-basher?

 

I'm tired of those claiming to be "green" without fully qualifying. True, they get some credit for either the MPG improvement or the SULEV/PZEV emissions. But unless both are achieved, their choice is not worthy of the label. Merit must actually be earned. Our air-quality problems and oil-dependency won't be solved by a feel-good attitude.

Engine-Only designs are not a long-term solution. A hybrid of some sort is what will support the automakers going forward. This resistance to change by endorsing a design that doesn't provide for an improvement to both emissions & efficiency is counterproductive. The industry is horribly slow to respond. Giving them an excuse to not implement anything new is most definitely something we should not have to tolerate, especially since unwillingness to respond to need is revealing itself to be an economic disaster.

 

I'll be happy to link Wayne saying this on www.cleanmpg.com, but it's academic to a few of you who find what Wayne said against the Prius a few years ago unpardonable, and your posts are compromised because Wayne-bashing is priority.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jan 5 2007, 01:35 PM) [snapback]371397[/snapback]</div>

Just what is truly green? Don't you think the "standards" will go beyond a Prius II in five years if you mean greenest hybrid? Some say living totally off the grid is the only true green....

It's worth repeating that the average driver is getting 22mpg and typically wastes gas left and right. If truly green is driving HSD hybrids or equivalent or better, that's many years away, so just rip anybody attempting to educate drivers to drive greener.

This is not an intellectual discussion on what Wayne has done.

It's personal.

Aren't there tens of millions of gas guzzelers more worthy of being called out?

Maybe I better take a break from this thread.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 5 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]371409[/snapback]</div>

SULEV
SULEV
SULEV
SULEV
SULEV

SULEV

Get it? (I tend to repeat to ensure clarity.) That SULEV rating is a proper minimum. PZEV is even better.

Years from now, Tier-3 will decrease rating tolerances more and extend rating durations. But if advanced vehicles of today can't even reach the current threshold, we obviously have a problem. Two examples of this clean deception are "GreenLine" and "Blutec". Neither one comes even close to SULEV.

 

Sadly, you are also shouting "smug" and "grudge" - I'd rather not inject those words.

As I said in my last post, it will be years before the rest of the country drives SULEV or better vehicles. Even as they are getting SULEV vehicles, it's very worthwhile for them to drive non-aggressively to be even greener.

If you are suggesting the people driving sub SULEV vehicles should not both changing their driving until they get a new vehicle, is that going to delay Global Warming more?

john1701a, I honesly think your green viewpoints are basically the same as Wayne's.

Peace