This guy can get 59mpg in a plain old Accord. Beat that, punk

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 5 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]371392[/snapback]</div>

Ok, I am not fully aware of his current position and contribution on hybrids. I was simply speaking from my experience as a red flag went up in my head.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 5 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]371460[/snapback]</div>

Since people already have the choice of how to drive, I don't address it. No suggestion has been made.

Discussions have always focused on making choices currently not available a reality... like getting an HSD option in Camry, which did indeed finally happen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 5 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]371298[/snapback]</div>

Are you trying to make a comparison between an ICE only vehicle and another vehicle with hybrid powertrain?
The hybrid market represents 1% or 2% of the new vehicles sold today. What the heck does that mean to you?
By having somebody like Wayne demonstrate how to be greener isn't he attempting to reach and influence far more people than numbers of self-inflated-green-smugs like us?
Of course, he's showing them how to save gas and inevitably (and by implication) how to polute less. What do you mean "Maybe not" ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 5 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]371298[/snapback]</div>

What the heck are you talking about? All hybrids currently on the market burn gas and need a cat converter. When they are cold they polute more than when they are warm and almost as much as any other vehicle of similar volumetric displacement. You speak of our Priuses as if they have no technology limitations to share with other more traditional automotive technologies.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 5 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]371298[/snapback]</div>

How many people can buy (and even want) to use HSD equipped vehicles? What are the current production volumes for Toyota Hybrids?
What the heck is HSD & IMA anyway? Most will agree, that it is just another marketing term that represents a snapshot of automotive history. A history that is still evolving but it is definetly not for everyone. And people like Wayne target all those folks that are not yet part of that history.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 5 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]371298[/snapback]</div>

Who are these hypermilers? At the moment, short of a handfull of Japanese hypermilers, I (and many others) know of no-one that does not owe something (in some way) to Wayne.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Please don't get my earlier post wrong, I'm not bashing Wayne. Heck, I dont even know Wayne. I merely made a comment on the driving techniques that I read about that I thought were unsafe, and I still think there are several of them mentioned in the article.

My post was NOT intended to be a comment on his level of "green ness"....... nor was it intended to be a comparison to mine, or anyone elses. I also had a Ford Ranger pickup, two wheel drive that would easily get 35 MPG and up. But the same Prius owners Wayne complains about driving 75 in the inside lane in traffic are also getting better mileage than he is. That's the irony I see. I also don't think its a matter of money. Apparently he ownes three vehicles, at least two of which cost as much as a Prius.

I think we're all on the same side here. Its not a competition. Surely we would all benefit from a cheap, plentiful source of alternative fuel/energy. I could not be happier that to know I had just purchased my last gallon of gasoline, that I could heat my house from the sun wiithout having to have our mountains leveled for the coal, and the wildlife refuge......well, don't get me started on that sh*T.............

Have a good weekend ya'll. Peace to all of us who really go through life awake and aware. Let s try to wake up a few more sleepers and help them see what we see..... later.........

 

Living in the past is an utter waste of time. Where do you go if you are constantly looking in the rear view mirror? Let me offer myself as an example:

Exactly one year ago, and for many years prior, I proudly displayed my Valentine One on the windshield. If you knew how much time I spent finding the optimum mounting place for it, and learning how to speed for the sheer heck of it without getting caught, I think most of you would be somewhat appalled. To me, this was just how I wanted to do things. To me, there was nothing wrong with it. And you know what? I changed my mind.

I don't even remember how, but at some point late last winter I decided that there had to be a better way. My driving style was not only dangerous but extremely wasteful. I found Wayne's site and started reading, and after that my driving style started to change. The V1 was put (and remains) in my closet, swapped out for a ScanGauge. My heavy foot was trained to keep the lightest touch on the accelerator. My mind, which was used to looking ahead for "slow pokes," was re-trained to keep an eye on vehicles and traffic lights as far ahead as possible in order to avoid loss of momentum. Rather than crowding up with the rest of traffic on the highway I learned to drive at an even pace that allowed me to keep up with minimal need to slam on the brakes like everyone else. In short, I pulled a complete 180.

So does that mean that nobody can trust me? Am I a hypocrite because I used to do things one way and now do them another? I don't think so. I changed, and I got over it.

And I moved on.

 

usbseawolf2000,

Perhaps I lumped you with a couple of responders too much and assumed you knew Wayne a little better - sorry about that.

RangerDavid,

I absoutely agree with you about pitting Prius vs diesels vs Honda hybrids vs conventional fuel sipper - gas guzzers outnumber us all. I'm well aware 59mpg in an Accord can be beaten by a Prius, but have tried to say Wayne is between an Insight he got 92mpg on and a Prius III when it comes out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jan 5 2007, 04:19 PM) [snapback]371523[/snapback]</div>

Driving a car leanly is greener, just as eating leaner is healthier.

Hybrids are about 1% of the market and it's going to take time for those numbers to grow. The most sensible thing in the interim is to encourage hybrids and non hybrids alike to adopt at least some hypermiling techniques. I'm simply puzzeled with your opposition to Wayne's advocacy of hypermiling, stating this is not green enough.

CleanMPG greetings from Armavir, psyshack, brick, Delta Flyer

 

well wayne if nothing else, you sure get em talking!!

personally i fail to see peoples perception of dangerous or stupid driving. tailgating i would not recommend... but would i recommend driving 20 mph over the speed limit???

what is more dangerous??? well, i have always heard that speed kills. it kills the environment, it kills mileage, but most of all, it kills people. now driving fast and wasting gas is killing us in more ways than we care to acknowledge.

so who is the irresponsible one?? sure some of wayne's techniques are a bit extreme, but i still say that people doing 75 mph weaving in and out of traffic and tailgating just as bad as wayne with the difference of being impatient, more of a hurry and less aware of their surroundings, going faster are WAY MORE dangerous.

obtw... great numbers wayne!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 5 2007, 08:26 PM) [snapback]371646[/snapback]</div>

Of course, if you're really "tailgating" and driving with your bumper against the truck (you might have to design a very tall bumper for your car), it could be prettry safe. If the truck would slam on the brakes, there'd be no collision between you and the truck. With very short distance behind the truck you'd have virtually no reaction time. OTOH, the truck's speed wouldn't have changed very much before impact.

Of course, I'd be scared to death to actually do something like that. I just don't like driving blind.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Jan 5 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]371560[/snapback]</div>

Looking back at the automotive history, people don't like to compromise. ICE only vehicles have limitations and so do hybrids. Every design has trade-offs but a better design has less restrictions. What I am saying is... with a good hybrid design like HSD, owners don't have to compromise on size, power, time and patience to achieve good MPG and low emission. Let the technology take care of it man!

What Wayne is showing/proving is that, if you go too extreme, you get extreme results. Like what they say the difference between ordinary and extraordinary. Yup it is that little "extra". Wayne is doing an extraordinary job with achieving these extreme MPGs. Like the point I made above, most people will not compromise to get those MPGs. I think if you are promoting ICE only car with extraordinary high MPG results, you are fighting an uphill battle against the automotive history. People will not compromise unless the gas prices go up.

So we are back to the start. The only proven solution to achieve high MPG and low emission is with a good hybrid technology like the Hybrid Synergy Drive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Jan 5 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]371560[/snapback]</div>

IMA is a parallel hybrid. HSD is a parallel-series hybrid (best of both worlds). A completely different animal. Honda now realized that IMA has hit the road block. The news confirmed that IMA is only suitable for compact cars as they are discontinuing the Accord Hybrid. Honda also has no plan that I am aware of (are they still with RDX hybrid?) to create SUV hybrid either.

HSD is more flexible and has less limitation. Just look at the new concept FT-HS (Future Toyota Hybrid Sports car. HSD is more than a marketing term. I am a fan of the superior technology, specifically HSD. If Honda or any other manufacture come up with a better powertrain design, I'll be happy to switch camp.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 6 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]371763[/snapback]</div>

Yup! That's where the JUST DRIVE IT motto came from. Regardless of what your personal purchase preference is or your particular driving habits are, you'll still get the benefits.

Going beyond that is great, but it's a distraction from the point... sadly, an effective greenwashing technique the casual reader isn't typically aware of.

When your goal is to get that technology to the majority, you want to focus resources on doing exactly that. All along, there were certain people who absolutely refused to look at the long-term mass-market perspective... dismissing the potential based on numbers & configurations exclusively from today only, rather than acknowledging the benefits that result from increased production. Given time, prices drops, choices increase, and the technology improves.

Read my blogs from several years ago. That counter-productive activity was very common. Absolutely refusing to even address the potential spreading that technology across the fleet had was the theme. Nowadays that stubborn attitude is translating to a sense of denial. Toyota's success is revealing itself to be more than just a trend, a genuine industry-changing large step forward. Why are some still fighting that?

Check out the attitude on the big GM forum. They are becoming quite polarized, either upset that GM took so darn long to finally invest in hybrids or still totally against change. That's very different from the "small step" some here are in support of, basically a quick fix. What is your purpose?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 6 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]371763[/snapback]</div>

Ok, here we go again.

Where did you get the information that "Honda now realized that..."?

All their press releases and engineering disclosures for the last 5 to 6 years (I don't have older records) had clearly outlined their long term targets and expectations. What is happening is not a reactive attitude of their part - particularly when taking their past statements into account.

They designed their Hybrid system in the form of IMA because of their vision, corporate philosophy and long term strategies. They were not ready (and still aren't) to give up the Rank of #1 world producer of ICE powerplants. Why would they produce anything other than IMA, again taking into account their history, statements, and role in this industry? Anyone who has followed Honda over the decades knows that Soichiro Honda would do a back flip on his grave if the basic precepts of the company were eroded by temporary objectives. And that my friend, is the reason Honda messes up in the eyes of many.

Sure as a hybrid system HSD offers superior potential. That is not news and has been beaten to death.
But does it happen to offer significantly better results than a comparable IMA for the average Joe-sixpack? As an owner of both systems, I have trouble trumpeting my 2007 Prius when both vehicles offer me roughly the same benefit. Heck, even the GreenHybrid Database can back my observations of both. I'm glad you enjoy your Prius, these are awesome machines and I would recommend one even to my mother (I actually did ) - Unfortunately some of their owners are a little more close minded to see anything beyond their pride and that saddens me greatly.

Honda have stated "for ever" that they do not intend to produce a hybrid large vehicle. They reluctantly (and under market pressure by their US division) have been producing V6's and larger vehicles primarily for the north american market and its tastes. Large vehicles have never represented Honda's worldwide image or phylosophy. Why even hope for a hybrid SUV from Honda? Only someone who knows very little about this company would edge hope like that.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jan 6 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]371763[/snapback]</div>

Going from the bottom up, there is a lot of variance even among Prius drivers. VaBeachPrius gets 70mpg, while others get 45mpg. If you want to be greener, go past the autopilot mode. We see the jumbo SUV drivers yaking on their cell phones, changing multiple lanes for an exit yards ahead - now that's criminally autopilot. Notice the freeway barriers used to be wood posts and steel? Now they are higher and concrete to keep larger vehicles from flying into the other lane and killed in collisions. This is a comment about the general public now - I have a problem with drivers not paying attention to the road, on the phone, etc.

Physics 101 seems to say every vehicle has a shortcoming. The IMA gets better open highway fuel economy, but can't EV. This HSD gets better fuel economy in stop-and-go traffic and can be upgraded to a plug-in hybrid, but is not that impressive with highway fuel economy. If GM ever gets their Two Mode hybrid out, that might be the best system (how I wish it was a Japanese automaker working on this).

I'll say it again, I wish Honda had done more upfront homework in the 90s. They would have either improved the IMA or come up with something else.

Anyone ever stop to think there might be some gas guzzlers lurking laughing their butts off at some of the bickering in this thread?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 6 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]371836[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely true, Delta Flyer.

Going beyond this is for some as much of a lost cause as beating a dead horse.

In any case, I can't wait for the 2007 HybridFest, this time I hope to make it there.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Jan 6 2007, 02:22 PM) [snapback]371826[/snapback]</div>

What do you tell someone that wants an Accord sized high-mileage super-clean vehicle?

The fact that Honda doesn't currently have something to compete with Camry-Hybrid is one thing. But hearing that they have no plans to deliver anything at all until 2009 is another entirely... which brings us back to the topic at hand. Honda got the message. IMA wasn't enough to compete. That makes this report of 59 MPG at odds with the automaker's response to market need.

The timing of this article/discussion and the timing of the diesel announcement are one heck of a interesting situation.

 

I am open to the arguement that Honda misses the late Soichiro Honda, just like Star Trek misses Gene Roddenberry.

Keep in mind that any hybrid system is recovering wasted kinetic energy. The reason Wayne gets his very high fuel economy is not wasting kinetic energy in the first place. You can also argue that hybrids are more useful than ever because our society is more lead-footed than ever.

The message Wayne is trying to make is even if you don't hypermile, adopting some of his techniques will save gas and make a substantial difference. When you are braking, 30-40% for the kinetic energy is recovered - at least 60% is still wasted. That's why at least leaning towards a hypermiling state of mind will prevent a lot of wasted fuel.

Sometimes I go over the speed limit, but I still do it on less gas than in the past. Just a few modest things will help - accelerate to above the speed limit more gradually, don't vary your speed a lot, anticipate what's ahead. I promise you it won't give you a stroke.

Another hybird note: they all use an ICE. Honda decided coupling a super-efficient ICE with a hybrid system was the way to go. I think the concept is still valid, but the implementation needed work.

I know that to some of you this is unthinkable as Red Sox Johnny Damon playing for the Yankees, but what if a Honda-designed ICE powered a Prius? Yes, I understand the rivalry between Toyota and Honda, but the point is they make the best ICEs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jan 6 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]371844[/snapback]</div>

You're entitled to believe only Toyotas should be sold and competiton should be liquated as hopeless fools - that message is loud and clear.

I'm no Einstein and can't figure out how letting only Toyota produce hybrids makes the planet greener sooner. I thought the membership here loathed monopolies.




Yes, MSantos - I agree it's time to move on....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Jan 6 2007, 04:05 PM) [snapback]371846[/snapback]</div>

Since I have been giving support to Ford's "full" hybrid design for years and doing the same recently for GM's upcoming "full" hybrid, your comment makes no sense. They both compete with Toyota.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jan 6 2007, 04:16 PM) [snapback]371849[/snapback]</div>

Considering the financial health of Ford and GM, their mention their meager hybrid sales, and adversity to promote fuel economy, Detroit's piece of the pie in a Toyota/GM/Ford world would be very small. I'm not exactly holding my breath for a Detroit compact hybrid either.

I hope this is not a contest to see how many posts vBulletin will allow in a thread before it maxes out.

 

i think that we have to look at this in a few different ways.

our commutes are getting slower and taking more of one's time but at the same time not necessarily farther. as we increase the time in our cars, we are forced to do other things. eating, communicating, organizing, verifying, and a whole host of other things. people will not be paying attention to their driving... i guess this should be in the other honda thread, but a hybrid allows one to multi-task while driving. other typical cars do not and allow great gas mileage.

sure, IF you are paying attention, most of the time you can greatly increase your mileage AND do it safely. but that is not how we drive.

there is a large difference between mileage figures here. its all because some of us go all out to get good mileage, some do a lot occasionally, some things frequently, then others just drive it. they get 45 mpg the rest of us get 50+ mpg.

it is not possible to get 45 mpg in a regular car by just driving it.... period.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 6 2007, 10:25 PM) [snapback]371948[/snapback]</div>

Multi-tasking while driving is just kinder description of distracted driving. Not saying you do it, but a lot of people do it, and we all see the results....some articles say that's 3,000 extra US traffic deaths....now it's gone to a safety issue - if people are not willing to spend the majority of their time makeing sure they are not a hazard to others - they should not be driving - period. I'd so so far to suggest a device that will disengage this engine if both hands are not on the steering wheel most of the time (please save that debate for another thead - driving is no time for multi-tasking)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 6 2007, 10:25 PM) [snapback]371948[/snapback]</div>

I'd bet it's possible to get 45mpg in a Yaris with a slight amount of hypermiling techniques.

 

DeltaFlyer,

I am currently at 77.1 mpg after 174 miles this tank, not 70 mpg. Please make sure your facts are straight.

I have a similiar story to Brick's. I was a lane changing, speeding, reckless fool. BTW, I have been very lazy and I am currently trying to sell my BMW M5 that seems to only idle at a stoplight or go 100+ mph. 400 hp and a heavy foot lead to trouble. I now believe it was an insecurity that led me to purchase a $55,000 used BMW. That time of recklessness has past.

In April, I became interested in fuel efficiency. From there it lead to a desire to reduce emissions. I read everyone of John1701a's personal daily entries. From there, I took ownership of my prius on 1 July 2006. From my first and worst tank of 44 mpg to my best of 73.6 mpg for a tank, I have strived to improve during every driving situation. I caught wind of the prius marathon and wondered, "How the he*( did they do that?" I found my way to cleanmpg.com and I have made the choice to take more time to get from place to place, to not take the freeway, to pump up my tires, to focus on what is infront and behind me at all times when I drive, and most importantly to slow down. One must really pay attention to get 84 mpg over 42 miles of city driving with approximately 75 stop lights. IMHO, that amount of focus has made me a safer driver, not only for myself, for my family, and for those who drive around me.

I could care less if I spend $50 or $150 or more per month on gas. I do miss the refinment that the BMW offers (especially a M series one), but, it is about more than that. If the GS400h or the LS600h got 45+ mpg, I would be driving one of those. I'll wait. It will happen one day. For now, as a father of a two year old and with one on the way, I feel better reducing my footprint on the environment in my Prius.

Regarding the actual topic of this thread, why not try to improve fuel economy with what you already own? It's a start in the right direction.