Thread to talk about EVs

Zacher: I'm starting to realize that it's not that simple. EVs would mostly be charged overnight (when prices are cheaper) and I've read that at night the net has an over capacity (that is electricty basically gerneated and thrown away) from idling plants that are not efficient to shut down. I read somewhere on Darell's page that a million EV's could be supported at night through this over capacity in CA alone.

Also switching from coal to something else (nuclear?) would be a lot easier if we where running EV's since we wouldn't have to switch every single car. So once we use EV's the next step to clean up the grid is an easier problem I think. So a switch to EV is important it could really clean up our system.

It would be interesting to see what happens to an EV economy when the grid is taken down (remeber the east coast a couple of years ago)?

 

I'm going to start with this one. Yes, today most of our electricity comes from relatively dirty fossil fuels. But that's where the similarity ends! EVs CAN be powered cleanly (as I do from PV) while gasoline can never be made clean. The fossil fuel for our electricity comes from domestic sources. We have to depend on other countries for our oil now and into the future. Power plants can be more easily made cleaner as compared to cleaing up millions of tail pipes running around. There are many differences! That electricity today comes from fossil fuels does not tell the whole story! We can make our electrical power domestically and cleanly. We simply can never do that with our liquid fuels.

 

Please remember that gas pumps don't work when there is no electricity too! And on top of that, it takes more electricity to make gasoline, than it takes to charge batteries in an EV to go the same distance. A little bit of info that few realize.

All that said, if you have two EVs parked in your garage when the power goes out, you can power your home from the cars, if you wish. Smart two-way charging would allow this, and has been demonstrated. NOTHING new needs to be invented!

 

Of course making *anything* has negative impacts on the environment. It takes lots of energy to make batteries. But there's little to fear about Li-ion as far as later recycling goes. NiMH are pretty good, Li-Ion are VERY good in that respect. Hell, you can eat the Li! Sprinkle it on your cereal in the morning for a little boost.

 

Folks are shipping these across the country for about $1k I believe. I've never done it, but it is obviously done when the need arises. Take you a while to cross some states at 50 miles per charge! That said, there are several EV1 drivers (100 mile range) who have crossed the country in their cars with no other assistance. If you ever think that I'm crazy - just remember those folks!

 

It's amazing the more I read about this the more it becomes clear that it's an idea who's time (and technology) has come. I see no technical reason for why EV cars is not built. They have already proven that they can build EV cars that perform as well as ICE cars and with a range long enough for commute. This with 10 year old technology.

Looking at an EV car it has fewer moving parts and as such would require less maintainence so it should be cheaper to maintain.

There must be another reason why we can't buy these cars but I can't figure out what it is.

My main guess is economy it's simply to expensive to manufacture an EV car. Manufacturers would loose money trying to mass produce a car and it would still end up with a high sticker price. This is harder to overcome. Let's hope that small manufacturers (like ac propulsion) can find a way to not loose money on the deal and help prove the viability of it.

 

Ken - this subject is a huge one that would take weeks to cover correctly. There is much information on my EV site about this, and if you're serious about wanting to know more, I invite you to poke around some of the document sections.

Let me attemt the full-on Reader's Digest version: Car makers need to show a profit to share-holders. Usually quarterly. They are making profits on the tried-and-true gasoline cars they sell today. Starting a whole new technology, while good for the long-term, is death to short-term profits. So, with blinders fimly strapped on, the auto makers will do what they can to continue down the path of status-quo. Every one of the makers - including Toyota unfortunately - has lied about the market potential of EVs. The simple reason that I know this is because these vehicles were never marketed! How many people do you know, knew that the Rav4EV was available for sale in the US for eight months in 2002? How big of a market were they expecting for a car with zero options, a car based on a years-old body style, and one that had a whopping choice of two colors (though 80% were made in one of those two colors)? And how big did they expect their market to be when only 25 dealers in the country sold them, there were none to test-drive, it took four months to take delivery, and nobody knew they existed!?

Car makers don't want to build these. In GM's case, over half of their money is invested in ICE-specific parts manufacturing. Moving to EVs would to akin to taking all that cash and throwing it out on the street.

As I said, this is a much bigger subject than I can relate in one post, but the reasons that automakers don't want to do this are logical - assuming that you have a short-term profit goal.

 

Well, here's one in Indiana. Kinda beat up though.

Currently I've only heard of EV1 and Rav4EV drivers going cross-country.

 

No. My truck is a model year 2000. The warranty is long gone. The original folks had a warranty, however. These have not been made since 2001, I believe. No more warranties!

 

I think you're right on the money here. The bottom line is that most people fear change. Prius drivers hear it from others, and EV drivers even hear it from Prius drivers.

Japan and Europe are both way ahead of us in the push for EVs. And this could not be more sad (for us Americans at least) because GM was THE LEADER with the EV1. The first ever modern EV! From the heartland of America! Designed and built right here! With stellar performance! It turns out that GM's fear was not that the EV1 wouldn't sell... but that it would. And that they'd be required to build more as we woke up to the potential of BEVs. So, after spending $ billion to create the EV1, GM then spent about the same amount of money to kill the program - going so far as to sue the state of CA to keep CA from requiring cars that GM was the first to create!

Crazy freaking world we live in.

 

Thanks for an excellent reply Darell, your posts are full of insights!
I wonder how we the consumers could help create a market.

 

Yeah, both. It was driven by college students. Put it this way - I wouldn't buy that one!

Simple. They're not telling the truth... as with the rest of what you quote below.

5000 watts of solar array would cover about 30 pickup trucks. I have only 2,500 Wats on my roof, and it takes the whole garage roof! Again, somebody is confused about the facts. You'll notice that they also charge "at night" with the solar array. OK! I'd love to do that, and save all my daytime sunlight for the house power.

I'll polish it up for you. Come on by so I don't have to hassle with listing it.

 

Thanks for YOUR insight and knowledge. I've wondered the same thing. My answer is to buy EVs, of course. And thus vote with my checkbook. But hell, they were ALL bought when they were made, and the auto makers managed to even put a spin on selling out - "only 300 were sold."

I just make sure that my dealerships know that I don't want to burn gasoline. They all think I'm crazy, but there you go. Demanding plug-in options on today's hybrids is one way to move us in the correct direction.


Hey... welcome everybody to Darell Day on Prius Chat!