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Throttle oscillation + CVT acts like it is in neutral or is fighting the brakes

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Jaron Lindow, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. Jaron Lindow

    Jaron Lindow Junior Member

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    I have a 2007 Prius which is having to use the gas engine and CVT for primary propulsion until I get some battery modules replaced.

    A few times today when trying to accelerate from a stop, the engine would rev and slow repeatedly while barely moving forward.

    Stopping the motor and then immediately restarting it did not resolve the issue, although after pulling over and leaving the motor off for a few minutes, the car was back to drivable, although the RPMs seemed unnecessarily high when I got back on the road.

    I changed the CVT fluid, which was worn out, but that did not make an improvement.

    The only check engine codes the ODBLink is coming up with are P0A80 and one relating to a weak module. Clearing the codes makes no improvement due to the battery indicating a voltage too low for the drive motor to help.

    I did just replace the rear brakes. I'm not 100% sure I put them back together properly, so I can't rule that out, but don't think that would explain the oscillation/revving in the throttle.
     
  2. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    The car is basicly worthless without a healthy hybrid battery.

    The engine is screaming because there is no contribution of power from the hybrid battery and power is solely provided by the 11 years old 90 hp motor which probably has 200000 miles on it so let’s say it’s more like 50 horsepower motor. And your driving it with the same expectation of acceleration as a car with a healthy battery. The motor will be screaming.

    Be aware there have been reports of battery fires with continued driving with a failed hybrid battery.
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    welcome!

    is the air filter clean, and the connections tight?
     
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The premise that you can operate the Prius without a functioning traction battery is flawed. The Prius engine operates on the Atkinson cycle (vs. Otto cycle) which means it has very low torque output at low engine speed.

    As Ed pointed out, continual operation of the Prius with a failed traction battery may result in a fire as the failed module(s) overheat since all of the electrical energy provided to those modules is converted to heat.
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    amazing the engine starts at all. or maybe it isn't.
     
  6. Jaron Lindow

    Jaron Lindow Junior Member

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    @edthefox5, 180k miles, but 50hp matches the reading I got pulling onto the freeway. The issue isn't that the gas engine is wimpy. That's a given.

    @bisco, new air filter, but I haven't checked for vacuum leaks yet.

    @Patrick Wong, the gas engine does have significantly less torque than the traction motor at low speeds, which was expected. What I'm trying to debug is the occasional issue of the osculating throttle and only being able to inch forward at a few miles per hour.

    Thanks for responding, everybody. It sounds like this one is a head scratcher for the forum too, so if I figure it out first I'll be sure to post the solution.
     
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  7. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    I don't really think it is a "head scratcher".

    The car is just not designed to work without a functional HV battery.

    Your car is in limp mode, which is really only to get you to the side of the road safely. It is not an alternative propulsion mode.
     
  8. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I don't really think it is a "head scratcher".
    The car is just not designed to work without a functional HV battery.


    x2
    Step 1: Before you chase your tail and dump a bunch of money fighting a ghost, fix the obvious
    Step 2: Sit back in amazement as your car returns to normal operation...............

    Jaron,

    There is a formidable amount of knowledge and experience in this forum. Make use of it brother. Welcome to the forum.
     
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  9. Jaron Lindow

    Jaron Lindow Junior Member

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    What battery temperature triggers Limp Mode? Any official numbers?
     

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  10. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Jaron,

    The more you drive the car with the battery in t's current condition, the more damage you risk to the battery. Typically, from what I have experienced, is that the battery is continually charged by the car due to the low module voltage. Excess charge=excess heat generated. Once the other 27 modules are at capacity, all that current that is still being thrown into the battery is turned into heat. At the rate you're going, with 144f, you're going to end up needing to just replace the entire pack.
     
  11. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I agree with both these statements. The ability to revert to being a regular ICE vehicle seems to be an occasionally embraced false mythology.
    Toyota calls the system "Synergy" drive. And it's called a Hybrid. You would think that would be clue enough to illuminate that Prius isn't designed to work with a failing Hybrid Battery. But for some reason there does seem to be a population of people that like to believe the machine is capable of simply magically becoming a pure ICE vehicle if the battery fails, or sometimes the opposite, a pure electric vehicle if the engine fails. Neither is true.

    To the OP, it is possible you have multiple issues happening. BUT...as long as you KNOW the Hybrid Battery is failing, trying to put out the other fires, without resolution of the Hybrid Battery failure, makes diagnosis near impossible and repair nearly futile.
    The FIRST diagnosis is your Prius isn't operating correctly because the Hybrid Battery is failing.
     
  12. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Park the car till you fix the traction battery before you have a fire, cause a wreck, or both.
     
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  13. Jaron Lindow

    Jaron Lindow Junior Member

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    I know the battery needs modules, which are on their way. The car is parked except for testing. Please save the lectures; I'm just here for facts.
     
  14. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I agree.
     
  15. Jaron Lindow

    Jaron Lindow Junior Member

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    Update: I put in the replacement battery modules and took the car for a test drive with a mix of surface streets, freeway, and hills for 25 miles. The car seems to be back to normal, though I only managed an average of about 45mpg.

    I suspect the battery overheating from the bad modules was causing the system to cut it out.

    A car parked in the sun for an hour in the summer here can reach an internal temperature of 150F, and it looks like the Prius batteries want to run 10 or 20F warmer than ambient.

    Has anybody tried temporarily swapping the temperature sensors with variable resisters in order to simulate an overheat condition and determine the specific temperatures the Prius moves from normal to Triangle to Limp Mode? (Save the "bypassing temperature probes is dangerous" lecture.)

    Or does anybody have the official temperature threshold values?
     
  16. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    I suspect poorly performing battery modules were causing the system to cut out.

    Extreme heat is a factor in battery longevity, and may be a by product of poorly performing modules, but ultimately, it is poor battery performance that is the problem. Utilise window tint and a windshield screen to reduce internal temperatures.

    If the HV battery had been subject to dormant heating, the cooling fan would come on at an appropriate setting to cool it. As the car's internal environment is used to cool the HV battery, the cooler the interior the better the cooling of the battery.
    Nobody has reported such an experiment here to my knowledge.

    I don't think your supposition about heat is correct – while a factor it is not the only consideration. A battery getting hot is more a sign that something is wrong. in addition, there are many more inputs to Limp mode than just the battery temp – things like the ability of the battery to store and deliver energy; the overall capacity of the battery. A lot of the exact parameters are locked up in proprietary Toyota docs and are not available in the public domain. That is why you are not getting any concrete replies to your questions. Feel free to conduct your own experiments and, if you care to, report back to add to the collective knowledge.
     
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