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Tip for when your EV range is almost, but not quite enough

Discussion in 'Prime Fuel Economy & EV Range' started by stevepea, Aug 5, 2017.

  1. stevepea

    stevepea Senior Member

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    This long post is for those who'd like to basically extend their EV range just a few more miles once it's run out. Those of the "just drive the car" school should probably skip this :)

    This is a tip/observation I found to basically be able to use (mostly) EV still -- even once the EV range has depleted and HV has come on -- if you only have a few miles left (say 8 miles or less).

    Coming home from where I occasionally work, if there's no traffic, the EV range runs out between 1/2 way to 2/3rds of the way, and the rest of the way has to be in HV. However during rush hour -- because it's start and stop (and I employ things like "B" in start-and-stop EV driving) the EV range gets extended to ALMOST enough to get home -- but never quite enough.

    This post is for situations like this -- where you just have a few miles left after the EV range runs out. It's not really effective if it's more than say 8 miles, but for something like 8 miles or less, it seems to work pretty well.

    In general, if you were to drive steady in HV mode, you can say there's two ways to drive (without cruise control). You can (#1) always keep your foot slightly on the pedal and never really take it off, or (#2) keep your foot on the pedal for a bit, then lift it up for a second, then put it back down for a bit, then lift it up for a second, then put it back down for a bit, etc. Whether one is "right" or "wrong" isn't the point -- but the car reacts differently to these two different methods. And if your EV range has run out only a few miles from home -- and you only have a few miles left to go, driving in the (#2) style above will let you cheat and basically "extend" the EV usage of the car somewhat even after your EV range has run out and HV has come on, giving you really great MPG for those last few miles (because most of it will still be in EV instead of gas) -- much better than if you just drove "normally."

    For instance, today I had 5.3 miles left when my EV range depleted (4.3 left on the freeway, then 1 more mile on streets). I immediately reset the trip odometer at that point (to see the MPG I would get for the last 5.3 miles) and by driving "#2" style above, my MPG was 110.1 when I got home -- in HV -- for those last 5.3 miles (4.3 freeway, 1 mile streets) -- because I nudged the car to keep using mostly the EV battery even after the EV range officially ran out.

    The reason for this is, as you know, in HV mode, the car will switch back and forth between using gas, and (temporarily) just using the traction battery. If you drive like (#1) above (keeping your foot down and never really lifting it up), it will indeed go back and forth -- but will take a long time before (and between) switching back and forth.

    However, when driving in HV, lifting your foot off the gas pedal, immediately puts the car into "temporary EV" mode -- and even if you immediately lightly press on the gas pedal again to keep up your speed, the car will still usually be in temporary EV mode for about 10-15 seconds. Then as soon as the gas comes back on again, simply lift your foot up again to trigger the temporary EV mode again for another 10-15 seconds... and when the gas comes back on again, keep repeating the same procedure.

    That's how you "suck" even more EV range out of the car, even once the EV range has depleted and even though you're in "HV".

    The reason this doesn't work for longer distances is, of course, that doing this keeps using more of the EV battery and eats into the buffer area. You can do it to a point (maybe up to 7 or 8 miles) but after too long, the car will refuse to go into temporary EV mode again until it's had a chance to recharge the battery back to the baseline level (at which point there's no reason to do it). But I've found it works well if you just have a few miles left.

    So though this may not be a good way to drive "normally" (though it's good to know that lifting up the gas pedal for a moment always triggers the temporary EV mode unless the battery is way below where it should be), it IS a great way to extend and use more EV once the official EV range has run out, as long as you only have a few miles left. Once home, your charging time will take a little longer (since the battery level will be a bit lower than the baseline), but if you're someone who finds themselves running out of their EV charge just a couple miles from home/work, doing the above is a way to keep going on (mostly) EV for a few miles longer.

    Again, doing the above today for the last 5.3 miles on HV after the EV ran out (4.3 on fwy, 1 mile on streets), I got 110.1 MPG instead of probably something like 55MPG.

    Edit: Note: I've done this a few times now, but the times I've tried it have all been during slower (rush hour) traffic. It may not last as long if you're going 75mph. This latest time, the 4.3 freeway miles were heavy but not stopped traffic, 40-55mph, and the last street mile I kept under 45mph.
     
    #1 stevepea, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  2. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    I think you are saying that you dipped heavily into the HV reserve. I do the same, although I'd say it is good for about two miles and accessible at low power demands. It gets me through my neighborhood.

    Prius in older generations would change the battery capacity icon color when the reserve was low. I've yet to see anything similar in the Prime so I don't know how low I am going. Mostly I trust Toyota to protect the battery but I also only play that game 2-3 times a week. I'd hesitate to make it a daily practice if battery longevity is desired.
     
    #2 Oniki, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  3. stevepea

    stevepea Senior Member

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    Yes, exactly, I dip into the HV reserve, though I've found it works for well over 2 miles, at least during rush hour times (I decided to finally post after doing it once again yesterday, when I had 5.3 miles left). For the 4.3 miles left on the freeway, speeds were between about 40-55mph (congested but not stopped traffic) and then the last street mile or so I tried not to go above 45mph. If one is going 75mph on a Sunday morning, it may well only be 2 miles, I don't know, the times I've tried it have all been during slower traffic. I added an edit to the original post to address this, thanks.
     
    #3 stevepea, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    My whole reason for wanting a way to dip slightly into the Hv reserve is to avoid having the engine start and go through the warmup cycle at all.
     
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  5. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    If you look at the raw EPA 2-cycle fuel economy sticky, you will see that the Prime is rated for almost 80 mpg in HV mode for speeds in the 40-50 mph range. So let's do a little arithmetic:

    Over 5 miles in pure HV mode and a stable SoC, that is 0.0625 gallons of fuel
    5 miles at 110 mpg is 0.045454545 gallons of fuel
    So your HV reserve dip has saved 0.017045455 gallons
    A gallon has 33,400 Wh of energy and lets guess that the Prime is 40% efficient in HV mode, so
    The dip into the HV battery reserve required 33,400*0.017045*0.4 = 227 Wh of battery.

    You can do better than that ;-) **

    **I'm joking, of course. I have found that best EV fuel economy at low speeds and no brakes is about 125 Wh a mile. So my guess of 2 miles of HV reserve dipping works out to a similar 250 Wh.
     
  6. stevepea

    stevepea Senior Member

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    Right, but when your EV range is gone and you have 6 miles left to go, unless you want to walk home, the ICE has to come on. The trick though, is to use as little of that gas as possible at that point for those last few miles, by basically "tricking" the car into dipping into the reserve and still doing mostly EV (again, you can only do it for so long until the car won't let you do it anymore before charging the battery -- but for just a handful of miles, it always works ok for me).

    As far as efficiency, all I can tell you is what I've observed. Obviously nothing (exact speed and conditions) can be exactly duplicated multiple times in the real world unless you want to cause a traffic accident, but all I can tell you is, I've tried it numerous times -- both just driving "normal HV", and numerous times using this trick for the last few miles -- and the difference in MPG is substantial. By driving "normal", the MPG might be 55-65 at those speeds. By doing the trick though, I've been able to get over 100MPG (yesterday, 110.1MPG, by tricking it to draw more from the battery than gas). Also, the highest I've EVER been able to get for "real" (ie, going for at least 5 miles, and not just going down some steep hill) HV mileage has been 74MPG (city driving once). So the 110MPG is quite a bit more than that.

    YYMV of course, and as I stated, it's good only if you're a few miles short (otherwise charging will start to occur) but thought I'd post it for others who might face the same situation as me, as on rush hour days, the EV range always seems to deplete just a few miles from home. If the conditions are right, and there's just a few miles left, I do it, and it works great. Any way to burn less gas and exhaust out of the tailpipe is good for me..
     
    #6 stevepea, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  7. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    I was mostly pointing out that your 110 mpg over 5.3 miles works out to about 3.3 miles of HV and 2 miles of EV, the latter from dipping into the battery reserve. The 2 miles of EV were at a consumption rate of ~ 125 Wh/mile which implies that you used about 250 Wh of battery reserve. My vague memory is that this is ballpark what the non-plug Prius also allows.

    It does seem though that the Prime is easier to run in reserve depletion mode (for lack of a better descriptor.) All it takes is a low power draw. You may find it simpler to just get up to speed (or a little more) with gas and then use a small amount of EV power to stay there. Old timers used to call this 'warp stealth,' and has been known to the Prius community for ~ 15 years. It was rarely a good idea in a hybrid because you always had to pay it back with ICE. The Prime lets you pay it back at the plug.
     
    #7 Oniki, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  8. stevepea

    stevepea Senior Member

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    Interesting. The Prime is the first Prius I've owned (had a Honda hybrid before this) so didn't know about it. Figured I'd post it in case there were others who might not have known this trick, if they often find themselves in the same situation (ie, running out of EV with just a couple miles left).
     
  9. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    'Warp stealth' may have been known by a different label in Honda land but it existed there too. In fact, Honda's willingness to let owners dip deep into the battery SoC was a major cause of poor battery longevity. The hypermilers were the most affected since they dipped the deepest and most often.

    There is a cautionary tale in this story. Now admittedly Toyota is conservative in what it allows from the battery and pro-active in preventing owners from abusing the battery, but the physics remain the same and dipping deeply into the reserve will have some effect long term on battery health. So like most things in life, act in moderation. This advice is even more true with the Prime since we don't know how low a SoC is being reached.
     
    #9 Oniki, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  10. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    I believe we do know how low a SoC is being reached, and it's all good as long as the car is Ready and in Drive or Park. I'd go so far as to say that I'd be comfortable dipping into the HV battery capacity to any extent the car allows, as often as as I want. Why? Because the "HV battery" is just an imaginary partition within the already-conservative part of the physical traction battery's charge state that Toyota gives you access to.

    The one exception where I'd never want to get aggressive (or even go there at all, really) is any scheme involving draining the battery while in Neutral (or when out of gas, or eventually allowing it to possibly run out of gas, or with an inoperable ICE, etc), where the car can't control the charge state via the ICE, even if things go way below the normal boundary of user-accessible charge state, and get critical.

    On my 2005, it's human nature to hate seeing the charge state at 1 or 2 bars (purple), and to love seeing it at 7 or 8 bars (green) and to feel indifferent (or wanting it green, actually) when it's in the central range of 3-6 bars (blue). Yet they're all perfectly fine. In fact, when sitting idling in Park and running the radio, headlights, AC, etc, and giving it no gas pedal, the car itself chooses to head straight for the blue/purple border and spend a fair amount of time in the purple, rather than stay centered in the blue or head for the green. When it gets itself out of the purple, it doesn't go far at all into the blue, nowhere near the center.

    With the traction battery in the Prime being about 8x as big, the charge state changes very slowly from accessory usage, compared to with the smaller battery. So it would be more forgiving even if you made a big mistake like leaving the car in Neutral while running the accessories and letting it go below the bottom of where it normally lets you go, for a while. You'd basically have 8x as long to realize your mistake and put the car in Park, relative to the regular hybrid, before reaching a truly bad charge state. Of course if you did get to a truly bad state, you would have damaged 8x as large/expensive a battery. So don't even think of doing anything truly stupid like using your car as a home generator in Neutral rather than in Park just to (very inadvisedly) prevent the ICE from coming on. You really want a computer remembering to turn the engine back on at the perfect time, not a human remembering to shift out of Neutral before the battery dies.

    My assumption is that it's reasonably foolproof against user stupidity in Drive and Park, but not at all foolproof in Neutral, just like previous generations. Maybe they've added new safeguards due to the larger battery, but I'm not counting on that until Toyota says so, so that their deep pockets can make me whole if it's not true..
     
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  11. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    One more thought........a simpler way of putting it is that what you're doing is no different (except for being safer yet, due to the larger battery) from taking a regular HV battery down from appearing charged to appearing discharged, during which time the gasoline mpg is artificially boosted. There are times when it's smart to do this in an HV (like before cresting a mountain, to allow the battery to absorb more energy coming down the other side) but usually it's a wash because the high SoC came from gasoline. As someone said earlier, in your case you can replace that change in SoC via the plug. So it's a win, not a wash.

    And it's an even bigger win if it prevents you from significantly warming up the ICE.

    Similarly, EV capacity is not always best saved for low-speed driving. For instance, if your commute would require fully warming the ICE in both directions if you used that speed-based strategy, while simply depleting it on the way to work prevents any gas use at all in that direction. Then you only waste a hot engine cooling off to the air once rather than twice. It can get complicated based on weather etc, but trial and error is a valid learning method, and often better than just thinking we can figure it out without doing the experiment.